GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[cottonweaver]

Link to the redacted judgment:

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/judgme...-of-care-judgment-on-sibling-of-ellie-butler/

Thanks SuperN for the link.

I hope Mr Neal's heartfelt plea is granted and there an inquest in the case.

Yes, really surprised to read that the 2007 brain injury was likely blunt force after all that. ( Truth only possible due to a post-mortem.) Assault of 7 week old baby!
And surprised to read Hogg had no access to the DV texts. ( I appreciate she had no access to JG's hospital admission records.)
Upsetting to hear that YD also was assaulted in any way.
Harrowing levels of sexual violence in there.

Unsurprising that the forum conjecture around drug & alcohol abuse, about JG hitting her own kids too to get on-side with BB was proved correct. And yes even more petty thefts and benefit fraud! So he was indeed financially dependent on JG at one point after his benefits were stopped.

Pleased to see that Judge Dixon(? 2016 judge) seems to have left no wiggle-room for an Appeal and that J King was able to pre-figure the psycho-therapy needs of YD.

As much as I enjoyed following this case with you all, not sure I could stomach following another poor child's murder trial. ( This was my first.)

 

[Supernovae]

Pleased to see that Judge Dixon(? 2016 judge) seems to have left no wiggle-room for an Appeal and that J King was able to pre-figure the psycho-therapy needs of YD.

Are you thinking of HHJ Wilkie, the criminal trial judge or Lord Dyson, outgoing Master of the Rolls, who authored the most recent Court of Appeal judgment against the reporting restrictions?

 

[Tortoise]

I'm trying to understand the psychology of BB.

Why fight these convictions?

He's always been violent with adults, doesn't seem to be an issue for him whether it's a man, or a woman, and it's obvious now that he can't seem to resist beating the out of a pregnant woman.

As an aside, I would dearly love to know why pregnancy, a time of extra vulnerability for a woman, and something that usually evokes a need in others to extend or afford additional care and protection, seems to evoke a greater amount of violence in abusive men.

But anyway, he doesn't seem unduly perturbed by, or have a need to deny these other frequent violent assaults on adults, even if he does want to offer excuses for it, such as the person deserved it. He denied his abuse of JG but I think that was more to support JG's position and (absurd) claims in the trial, because they needed to work as a team rather than against each other. Still then, he couldn't resist saying she provoked him.

So why, when it comes to his children, does he see a need to fight the accusations and convictions?

I don't believe it's conscience.
He clearly did not want to be a father or have a family life - so it wasn't to have them with him.

Is it because everyone accepts that adults can be viewed as equals - we can blame other adults to an extent for not protecting themselves (JG could have left him for instance, other people could have refused to engage in fights with him) but children can not be blamed ever for violence against them. He can't justify to anyone deliberately hurting a child. The child has no choice.

So is the concept even too heinous for him to admit to himself? Is that why he went to those lengths for 6 years, and will try again, to clear his name? His last sentence for shaking Ellie when she was a baby was hardly a long one, so I don't think it's the punishment he can't handle. He even spent 3 years inside for the robbery.

He knows he did it, so there is no inner delusion going on. So why does he not care about being violent to adults but does care about being violent to children? Has he shattered his own self-image? Maybe there is a clue in the way he spoke about the perverts he was incarcerated with before.

So somewhere in his mind he has exceeded his own boundaries of evil. He just can't reconcile himself to attacking small defenceless and blameless children. The fact that he has and started probably on a few weeks old baby, and did nothing to walk away from the home where he was meting out such terror, I feel is more to do with external expectations and image, than to do with castigating himself.

 

[ColourPurple]

I'm trying to understand the psychology of BB.

Why fight these convictions?

He's always been violent with adults, doesn't seem to be an issue for him whether it's a man, or a woman, and it's obvious now that he can't seem to resist beating the out of a pregnant woman.

As an aside, I would dearly love to know why pregnancy, a time of extra vulnerability for a woman, and something that usually evokes a need in others to extend or afford additional care and protection, seems to evoke a greater amount of violence in abusive men.

But anyway, he doesn't seem unduly perturbed by, or have a need to deny these other frequent violent assaults on adults, even if he does want to offer excuses for it, such as the person deserved it. He denied his abuse of JG but I think that was more to support JG's position and (absurd) claims in the trial, because they needed to work as a team rather than against each other. Still then, he couldn't resist saying she provoked him.

So why, when it comes to his children, does he see a need to fight the accusations and convictions?

I don't believe it's conscience.
He clearly did not want to be a father or have a family life - so it wasn't to have them with him.

Is it because everyone accepts that adults can be viewed as equals - we can blame other adults to an extent for not protecting themselves (JG could have left him for instance, other people could have refused to engage in fights with him) but children can not be blamed ever for violence against them. He can't justify to anyone deliberately hurting a child. The child has no choice.

So is the concept even too heinous for him to admit to himself? Is that why he went to those lengths for 6 years, and will try again, to clear his name? His last sentence for shaking Ellie when she was a baby was hardly a long one, so I don't think it's the punishment he can't handle. He even spent 3 years inside for the robbery.

He knows he did it, so there is no inner delusion going on. So why does he not care about being violent to adults but does care about being violent to children? Has he shattered his own self-image? Maybe there is a clue in the way he spoke about the perverts he was incarcerated with before.

So somewhere in his mind he has exceeded his own boundaries of evil. He just can't reconcile himself to attacking small defenceless and blameless children. The fact that he has and started probably on a few weeks old baby, and did nothing to walk away from the home where he was meting out such terror, I feel is more to do with external expectations and image, than to do with castigating himself.

Why?

Self preservation. Survival. I think it's basically that everybody, including other prisoners look upon those who physically or sexually abuse children as the lowest of the low. Inside he'd be an even bigger target for other prisoners if he admitted what he'd done. As long as he denies it there's a chance somebody might believe he's innocent and not target him.

In fact I felt sorry for him as he told me how he had to serve his time on the ‘nonces wing’ adding “It was hideous, being in with men that had done unspeakable things to children.”

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13177...tler-convinced-the-world-he-was-a-doting-dad/

I wouldn't be surprised if even now he's thinking that if he can win an appeal he can sue everybdoy he wanted to sue before and be a rich man. I think that was the main reason he fought to get Ellie back in the first place. She was a means to an end.

 

[ColourPurple]

Hope it's okay to join.

Its tragic. Just tragic.

The thing that I cannot understand is how JG was given such a short sentence. Surely she is an accessory or similar and did contribute to poor Ellie's death. Usually I am very sympathetic to DV but this woman did nothing to protect her children. Nothing. And then she has colluded with him as part of his defence.

I have read as much of these threads as possible on a phone and I am sure that eve during his trial he was saying she was a crack head or something similar? Why would that woman stay with him let alone let him 'care' for two young girls.

I really think that he should be put on a normal routine in prison as well; not protected on the VPs wing. I hope that everyday somebody does something horribly abusive to him so he feels he has no control over his life anymore and lives scared of what might happen next to him.

These se are just my thoughts and ramblings but the story of Ellie has really affected me. I cannot believe how she was in effect sent to her death by a Judge.

Does anyone know if there is an enquiry if the Judge will be investigated etc? Or have to answer for her decisions? I am aware that somewhere it does state she was lied to but really by involving private SW she did take away that safety net. Just wondering?

I

I think alot of us have been puzled as to why JG didnt get stronger charges against her. Causing or Allowing the death of a child springs to mind. She could have been found guilty of that if she could have prevented the death and if the death wasn't accidental so I guess maybe either they weren't confident that they could prove that she could have prevented it (if she really wasn't there at the time) or maybe they could only charge her with that if the death was proven not to have been accidental (which it wasn't until his trial had finished). I guess they could also have argued that as a victim of his DV herself (though it seems reciprocal)she couldn't prevent it as she wasn'tt in the right place mentally to

I do think she got off lightly and I'm not convinved that something hadn't already happened to Ellie in her presence before she left for work, that then possibly escalated once she'd gone.

 

[ColourPurple]

The pink table with the broken leg with Ellie's blood on it being absent from the trial is a complete mystery.

I wonder if it was left out as they coudln't prove the blood was from that particular incident, and they wanted the case to be watertight with no wiggle room for him to come up with alternative explanations or appeals.

 

[Tortoise]

I wonder if it was left out as they coudln't prove the blood was from that particular incident, and they wanted the case to be watertight with no wiggle room for him to come up with alternative explanations or appeals.

It's just very odd that one of the paramedics said they saw the table with leg already broken flying through the air. I do wonder if BB threw it on purpose at that moment, to make it look as if the leg broke when it landed.

Also, they seemed to know that JG's blood was fresh.

 

[Melanie Regan]

Is it possible that now he has been found guilty and sentenced JG could face more serious charges? I hope so. I agree that something happened before she left for work as well.

Just on the table leg and him displaying something in front of the paramedic that is completely plausible.

I've never used this site before and am really only here because of this case. I want justice to be done for Ellie and I really hope this is start. Reading through all this and the decisions made has really opened my eyes to how bad our legal system and 'safety net' is for some. Is sickens me that he appeared on tv and was given air time. And it sickens me more that a mother let him do that to defenceless children, because I can only assume she wanted to keep him; in the judgement one of those text messages she sent did say she knew the situation was wrong. I can't make any allowance even though he was just as bad to her.

I don't know how Ellie's grandfather is staying so strong and my heart goes out to him.

 

[Melanie Regan]

My phone is not letting me quote but have just read the Sun article linked to.

'Holding court in Max Clifford's office'; it says it all. God I am angry about this awful tragic case.

 

[LucasHood]

Thank you to everyone who has shared links and information , I have read the full two threads and the full judgements all linked ( on my phone which has taken some time ! ). This has really affected me as having young children I cannot understand these monsters and find it interesting / frustrating / unbelievable how the legal system has failed these children and now has failed in justice for jg .

I don't know where to start , judge Hogg needs to be held to account regardless of not having the texts or hosp info. The violence and previous charges against bb clearly show he wasn't stable .

The independent social workers need to be held to account for their part in how the return was managed and the apparent lack of any follow up to review properly and ongoing , liase with school etc . I understand the letter from Hogg made the school feel unable to act as normal and this is unacceptable .

Ultimately why did he stay ? He could have walked out the house and never came back , most men if they aren't happy or want kids just leave . I know his benefits were stopped, however I dont believe money is behind his choice to stay.

I feel strongly jg should be held jointly responsble and given a much longer sentence . Her behaviour and actions throughout haven sickened me and I only hope she quickly gets put in general population soon . I have no sympathy for her.

My heart breaks thinking of Ellie and her sibling , and the grandparents if only the independent social worker had better managed the return and set in place more support it might have highlighted concerns and Ellie asking to speak to the judge should have been allowed . They had never lived together as a family so it was never going to have a happy outcome .

Why was the forensic information regarding the table excluded from trial ? Why was his relevant violent history excluded ?

I sincerely hope they are not successful in any appeal attempt and should absolutely not be given and more legal aid .

My thoughts are with ellies sibling , ng and a full inquest needs to be held . There was a petetion set up but never opened and people spoke of a account to raise funds for ng has any more been done on this does anyone know?

 

[michelle230]

I'm trying to understand the psychology of BB.

Why fight these convictions?

He's always been violent with adults, doesn't seem to be an issue for him whether it's a man, or a woman, and it's obvious now that he can't seem to resist beating the out of a pregnant woman.

As an aside, I would dearly love to know why pregnancy, a time of extra vulnerability for a woman, and something that usually evokes a need in others to extend or afford additional care and protection, seems to evoke a greater amount of violence in abusive men.

But anyway, he doesn't seem unduly perturbed by, or have a need to deny these other frequent violent assaults on adults, even if he does want to offer excuses for it, such as the person deserved it. He denied his abuse of JG but I think that was more to support JG's position and (absurd) claims in the trial, because they needed to work as a team rather than against each other. Still then, he couldn't resist saying she provoked him.

So why, when it comes to his children, does he see a need to fight the accusations and convictions?

I don't believe it's conscience.
He clearly did not want to be a father or have a family life - so it wasn't to have them with him.

Is it because everyone accepts that adults can be viewed as equals - we can blame other adults to an extent for not protecting themselves (JG could have left him for instance, other people could have refused to engage in fights with him) but children can not be blamed ever for violence against them. He can't justify to anyone deliberately hurting a child. The child has no choice.

So is the concept even too heinous for him to admit to himself? Is that why he went to those lengths for 6 years, and will try again, to clear his name? His last sentence for shaking Ellie when she was a baby was hardly a long one, so I don't think it's the punishment he can't handle. He even spent 3 years inside for the robbery.

He knows he did it, so there is no inner delusion going on. So why does he not care about being violent to adults but does care about being violent to children? Has he shattered his own self-image? Maybe there is a clue in the way he spoke about the perverts he was incarcerated with before.

So somewhere in his mind he has exceeded his own boundaries of evil. He just can't reconcile himself to attacking small defenceless and blameless children. The fact that he has and started probably on a few weeks old baby, and did nothing to walk away from the home where he was meting out such terror, I feel is more to do with external expectations and image, than to do with castigating himself.

I love it Tortoise! You`re as bad as me lol trying to find answers to the unanswerable!!

I guess we have to always remember that people come from different places in their brains - they have totally different mind sets/starting points/frames of reference so it`s pointless really trying to see it from * our * frame of reference. Psychopaths and narcissists (and psychopaths are ALWAYS narcissists though the opposite is not always so) are a totally different species from normal humans. Their brains even look different under a microscope. There are parts which have short circuited or not developed fully often due to being stunted through experiences when younger, or birth damage or brain damage.
BB - of course he would want to appeal and I think the reasons aren`t complex. Firstly, who wants to be locked up for 23 years? He`d rather be out there doing his "thing". Secondly he absolutely revelled in the power of being "wronged" previously. Wow - can you imagine the gloating power rush he got from that. For once - just once - he was (in the eyes of the judiciary/public/press etc the one who had been mistreated. Who was being grovelled to (foolish, foolish Judge), who was being * respected* by those who normally treated him with disdain and like the criminal he was. Suddenly he was a hero - a good man - a wronged man - an honest, open, self reflecting decent human being (puke). And don`t imagine that he`d secretly be laughing at them, thinking "What fools they are!". Because his thought process is so shallow that he would actually believe that he was indeed all these things that were being said about him. The majority of people rarely, if at all, self reflect - and a man like BB and characters like him - never, ever, ever. Remember also that he got away with so much over many, many years and I`m sure that when he was in remand on this last occasion, it would not have entered his head that it would end like this. One act of violence too far and forget a 3 month sentence. Forget a suspended sentence. Community order etc.
* 23 years*
Oh - and don`t forget the huge compensation that was inevitably coming their way. No small consideration.
I find her a far more complex character. I`ll write about her in the next post! (If anyone`s still awake!!!)
Michelle

 

[michelle230]

Oh and also to add that thinking about appealing and that he stands a chance is part of the shock process for him. He won`t yet have absorbed that he is going to be locked up for nearly quarter of a century. It will take some time before the fact is fully absorbed.

 

[michelle230]

Like others have said, I think that JG`s sentence was far too lenient.
On what basis do you think the Judge made that decision?
I have thought long and hard about her.
Sorry to say but I do not go for this battered/abused excuse. Yes, she was abused but she knowingly allowed this when she had so much support to help her walk away.
She was not downtrodden. She did not rely on him financially. She was educated. She had a good, supportive family. She had numerous agencies desperate to help her. She shunned them all.
To me, one of the important factors is that she did not come from an abusive background. She had the experience of a normal, loving upbringing. She knew her environment with BB, and that which she was happily subjecting her children to, was * not * normal. She readily sacrificed her own children.
He did categorically not want children. She knew this but kept on falling pregnant. Vile man though he is, she trapped him into a corner. Yes of course he could have left, but she would have hounded him to the end. Of course he was, in that twisted way that happens, co-dependent on her on her too - the "big man" was also highly needy. But for her, It was all about what * she * wanted and I do think that she forced those poor children onto him which he totally resented. He didn`t want them and he had absolutely no emotional ability to meet even their most basic needs.
Remember that when she was found with YS, when BB was in prison, YS was taken away from her because she was dirty and showing signs of neglect. (I think that`s when she was done for shoplifting and I`ll bet she took YS along when she was doing it). How many times did she get pregnant? Did she love the fuss and attention and hospital visits and drama?
I remember reading somewhere (I think in the SCR) that JG had said that the grandparents had not brought Ellie up properly - i.e. they were too "lenient" and loving. Thus I presume, in JG`s eyes that`s why Ellie was naughty/disobedient/badly behaved/disrespectful/difficult and needed BB and JG to "correct" the bad upbringing of the GPs (read into that smacking, beating, breaking bones, yelling, shutting them in their room etc
JG had children even though he never wanted them (In truth she didn`t want them either). JG kept getting pregnant. JG neglected the children (or at least YS) even when BB was not there. JG wanted all attention for herself. She was obsessed with hospitals and hospital treatment for herself but didn`t give a damn about the pain her children were in, let alone seek treatment for them. JG wanted BB for herself even though he didn`t want her. I do believe he would have walked away from her and the children eventually if he had been given space to do so. I believe she was the brains behind all the lies, the appeal and subsequent overturning, the manipulative thwarting of all the agencies, the solicitors letters, the latest, last prolonged court battle.
He`s an out and out murdering ****. But I believe she is just as evil. I really do. I wish she had been given a much longer sentence and I wish the battered "victim" portrayal was given far less emphasis. IMO obviously.
Michelle

 

[ColourPurple]

Thank you to everyone who has shared links and information , I have read the full two threads and the full judgements all linked ( on my phone which has taken some time ! ). This has really affected me as having young children I cannot understand these monsters and find it interesting / frustrating / unbelievable how the legal system has failed these children and now has failed in justice for jg .

I don't know where to start , judge Hogg needs to be held to account regardless of not having the texts or hosp info. The violence and previous charges against bb clearly show he wasn't stable .

The independent social workers need to be held to account for their part in how the return was managed and the apparent lack of any follow up to review properly and ongoing , liase with school etc . I understand the letter from Hogg made the school feel unable to act as normal and this is unacceptable .

Ultimately why did he stay ? He could have walked out the house and never came back , most men if they aren't happy or want kids just leave . I know his benefits were stopped, however I dont believe money is behind his choice to stay.

I feel strongly jg should be held jointly responsble and given a much longer sentence . Her behaviour and actions throughout haven sickened me and I only hope she quickly gets put in general population soon . I have no sympathy for her.

My heart breaks thinking of Ellie and her sibling , and the grandparents if only the independent social worker had better managed the return and set in place more support it might have highlighted concerns and Ellie asking to speak to the judge should have been allowed . They had never lived together as a family so it was never going to have a happy outcome .

Why was the forensic information regarding the table excluded from trial ? Why was his relevant violent history excluded ?

I sincerely hope they are not successful in any appeal attempt and should absolutely not be given and more legal aid .

My thoughts are with ellies sibling , ng and a full inquest needs to be held . There was a petetion set up but never opened and people spoke of a account to raise funds for ng has any more been done on this does anyone know?

Great first post

Personally, I think him staying with her was linked to his hope for compensation for his "miscarriage of justice". Presenting himself as the loving family man who fought to get his kids back works better for his case than had he walked away from the kids and had nothing to do with them. His texts in the redacted report show that he didn't actually want them, resented them, resented being made to look after them and didn't even seem to like them let alone love them. As he said, having them (back?) was her dream not his.

And she, knowing all that... left them there with him. Knowing he was violent, knowing he didn't want them there, knowing that he'd texted that he was raging and about to snap. She left two little girls in his care knowing what a monster he was. The redacted report made it clear that it looks like they'd been hit with belts and had their heads flushed down the toilet and that she must have seen the younger child's injuries when she dressed her. The report says she failed to protect them and I really think that should have been reflected in the charges she faced later, I assume that they didn't have enough to legally charge/convict her with that and just stuck with what they thought they could get convictions for.

I noted that the report said that once they were aware of the texts and the domestic violence, and once BB was in custody and she was "safe" from him they kind of expected her to apply for custody of the younger child and were surprised that instead she stuck by him and let the little one go into care instead. I think that sums her up and shows exactly where her priorities lay.

Regarding the private social workers who managed Ellies' move to live with her parents... I'd like to know exactly what the payment arrangement was there. Were they paid by the hour/week etc or were they paid a set fee to cover the whole management of the transfer of care regardless of how long it took. I'd like to know if it was to their advantage financially to speed up the move, because even to a non professional like me, it seems madness to speed up a move when things are going badly. The obvious solution woudl appear to be to slow things down... so what was it that made those social workers do the opposite?

 

[ColourPurple]

Like others have said, I think that JG`s sentence was far too lenient.
On what basis do you think the Judge made that decision?
I have thought long and hard about her.
Sorry to say but I do not go for this battered/abused excuse. Yes, she was abused but she knowingly allowed this when she had so much support to help her walk away.
She was not downtrodden. She did not rely on him financially. She was educated. She had a good, supportive family. She had numerous agencies desperate to help her. She shunned them all.
To me, one of the important factors is that she did not come from an abusive background. She had the experience of a normal, loving upbringing. She knew her environment with BB, and that which she was happily subjecting her children to, was * not * normal. She readily sacrificed her own children.
He did categorically not want children. She knew this but kept on falling pregnant. Vile man though he is, she trapped him into a corner. Yes of course he could have left, but she would have hounded him to the end. Of course he was, in that twisted way that happens, co-dependent on her on her too - the "big man" was also highly needy. But for her, It was all about what * she * wanted and I do think that she forced those poor children onto him which he totally resented. He didn`t want them and he had absolutely no emotional ability to meet even their most basic needs.
Remember that when she was found with YS, when BB was in prison, YS was taken away from her because she was dirty and showing signs of neglect. (I think that`s when she was done for shoplifting and I`ll bet she took YS along when she was doing it). How many times did she get pregnant? Did she love the fuss and attention and hospital visits and drama?
I remember reading somewhere (I think in the SCR) that JG had said that the grandparents had not brought Ellie up properly - i.e. they were too "lenient" and loving. Thus I presume, in JG`s eyes that`s why Ellie was naughty/disobedient/badly behaved/disrespectful/difficult and needed BB and JG to "correct" the bad upbringing of the GPs (read into that smacking, beating, breaking bones, yelling, shutting them in their room etc
JG had children even though he never wanted them (In truth she didn`t want them either). JG kept getting pregnant. JG neglected the children (or at least YS) even when BB was not there. JG wanted all attention for herself. She was obsessed with hospitals and hospital treatment for herself but didn`t give a damn about the pain her children were in, let alone seek treatment for them. JG wanted BB for herself even though he didn`t want her. I do believe he would have walked away from her and the children eventually if he had been given space to do so. I believe she was the brains behind all the lies, the appeal and subsequent overturning, the manipulative thwarting of all the agencies, the solicitors letters, the latest, last prolonged court battle.
He`s an out and out murdering ****. But I believe she is just as evil. I really do. I wish she had been given a much longer sentence and I wish the battered "victim" portrayal was given far less emphasis. IMO obviously.
Michelle

There was post a while back from somebody who said they knew JG years ago. It was deleted so I won't repeat what it said but it led me to think that this whole scenario could be down to JG putting her own sexual needs over the needs of her children.BB is a vile person and a lousy father but I suspect that the attraction JG has to him is mainly sexual and that she was prepared to sacrifice everything else in order to make sure her sexual needs were met. She texts him how she thinks hes "fit" and wants him to want her like she wants him and even writes out letters of prayer saying "make him want me". In fact in one of her letters look where her emphasis is (her capital letters)

'Please make my home. Ellie, Ben and I all happy together as a family. Please don't let Ben leave me but make him learn to like me. Stop violence and make him WANT ME and be there at the birth if I have a baby boy.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Butler-led-covering-murder.html#ixzz4FyxP2K4R

 

[michelle230]

Great first post

Personally, I think him staying with her was linked to his hope for compensation for his "miscarriage of justice". Presenting himself as the loving family man who fought to get his kids back works better for his case than had he walked away from the kids and had nothing to do with them. His texts in the redacted report show that he didn't actually want them, resented them, resented being made to look after them and didn't even seem to like them let alone love them. As he said, having them (back?) was her dream not his.

And she, knowing all that... left them there with him. Knowing he was violent, knowing he didn't want them there, knowing that he'd texted that he was raging and about to snap. She left two little girls in his care knowing what a monster he was. The redacted report made it clear that it looks like they'd been hit with belts and had their heads flushed down the toilet and that she must have seen the younger child's injuries when she dressed her. The report says she failed to protect them and I really think that should have been reflected in the charges she faced later, I assume that they didn't have enough to legally charge/convict her with that and just stuck with what they thought they could get convictions for.

I noted that the report said that once they were aware of the texts and the domestic violence, and once BB was in custody and she was "safe" from him they kind of expected her to apply for custody of the younger child and were surprised that instead she stuck by him and let the little one go into care instead. I think that sums her up and shows exactly where her priorities lay.

Regarding the private social workers who managed Ellies' move to live with her parents... I'd like to know exactly what the payment arrangement was there. Were they paid by the hour/week etc or were they paid a set fee to cover the whole management of the transfer of care regardless of how long it took. I'd like to know if it was to their advantage financially to speed up the move, because even to a non professional like me, it seems madness to speed up a move when things are going badly. The obvious solution woudl appear to be to slow things down... so what was it that made those social workers do the opposite?

I agree with you CP - the children were just an appendage - they had their uses.
Re your last paragraph - I think the move was speeded up because of the terrible animosity between BB/JG and the grandparents. The GPs did their best to bend to the other two and to hold their tongue but BB/JG were so confrontational and made so many problems for the GPs that it became untenable. Was JG grateful that her parents had taken care of her daughter. No - not at all! She was full of resentment - they were * her * belongings! It goes into more detail in the SCR.
Michelle

 

[Legally Bland]

I'm sure the Appeal Judgement from the 2007 injury has already been posted, but I must have missed it. Only on paragraph 3, but it looks like BB will have to find new medical evidence to support his appeal, assuming the Judge hasn't misdirected the jury (or something else?)

3. [...]In Kai-Whitewind Judge LJ observed that the court would only in the rarest of circumstances permit repetition or near-repetition of "evidence of the same effect by some other expert". Trials should not be a "dry run" for experts. Hearings of appeals should not present an opportunity to call new experts in the hope that they might do better than those whose evidence had previously been rejected [97]

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2010/1269.html

 

[Legally Bland]

I've always been under the impression that BB's appeal was successful on the basis of fresh medical evidence. That clearly isn't the case.

109. We repeat that the absence of one or more features of the triad does not exclude a conclusion of NAHI. The other evidence may be so compelling that it excludes an unknown cause and proves the unlawful violence alleged.

110. But not in this case. We conclude that there was no rational basis on which a jury, in the light of the ophthalmological evidence, could reject an unknown cause. Once that is acknowledged as a realistic possibility, the weight to be attached to the evidence of Dr Stoodley is itself diminished.

111. In those circumstances we allow this appeal and quash the conviction on Count 2.

112. We should add this. The summing-up contained serious misdirections. Those misdirections provide cogent support for the conclusion we have reached.

113. The Judge did not sufficiently direct the jury as to the importance of the opthalmological evidence and its effect in undermining the triad as evidence of NAHI and as supporting an unknown cause. It was incumbent upon him to have done so. No proper direction was given to the jury that they must consider the possibility of an unknown cause, particularly in the light of the ophthalmological evidence, and should only convict if they reject it.

114. The summing-up was also defective in its structure. The Judge carefully and conscientiously recited long passages of the expert evidence to the jury. But he did not 'direct' the jury at all. He recited those passages in the chronological order in which the evidence was given. That was of little assistance to the jury.

115. The jury required a careful direction as to the essential issues which they had to determine and a reminder of that evidence and only that evidence which went to those issues. It was necessary to deal with that evidence issue by issue.

116. The Judge did not have the assistance of R v Schmidt [2009] EWHC Crim 838 in which a summing-up similar to that in this case led to the quashing of the conviction [42] and [47]. Nor did he have the assistance of the current Judicial Studies Board Crown Court Bench Book March 2010, Chapter 8. We have only drawn attention to the summing-up because it assists in emphasising the need to construct a summing-up to meet the complexities of cases such as these and to ensure the case proceeds on a logical basis. It is only fair to the Judge to state that throughout the trial and the summing-up the Judge exhibited conspicuous care and fairness.

117. We think that the conviction on Count 4 should be quashed as well. We are uneasy (for the reasons given above) that this was left to the jury with Count 2. We do not think that it would have been prosecuted had it stood alone. The judge recognised this in his ruling. We also doubt whether this is a case of recklessness. We can discern no basis in the evidence upon which it could be said that this father should have realised this baby (aged 7 weeks or so) was likely to roll without the father (who was on his own) doing something. In those circumstances we have concluded that this count too should have been withdrawn from the jury. The appeal is allowed and both convictions are quashed.

118. We do not need to address the fresh pathological evidence sought to be adduced by the appellant. That evidence is highly contentious. We did not expressly consider the application to call fresh evidence nor do we express any other view about it.

BBM

 

[michelle230]

I've always been under the impression that BB's appeal was successful on the basis of fresh medical evidence. That clearly isn't the case.

It was because the Judge misdirected the jury when summing up. In actual fact incredible as it is, legally BB should not have been found guilty because there was enough of a possibility that Ellie didn`t have shaken baby syndrome to muddy the waters. Galling as it is, at least if the verdict had been a not guilty one, they may have been put under the eye of SS and certainly would not have been given the power handed to them by Judge Hogg as a consequence of the (legally incorrect) guilty verdict.
I know if I had been on the jury at that time it would have gone against all my instincts to find him not guilty.
Does anyone know legally if the Judge had summed up as she should have done, but as a juror, you still believed BB was guilty, could you return that verdict or are you compelled to follow the direction of the Judge?
Michelle

 

[LucasHood]

Great first post

Personally, I think him staying with her was linked to his hope for compensation for his "miscarriage of justice". Presenting himself as the loving family man who fought to get his kids back works better for his case than had he walked away from the kids and had nothing to do with them. His texts in the redacted report show that he didn't actually want them, resented them, resented being made to look after them and didn't even seem to like them let alone love them. As he said, having them (back?) was her dream not his.

And she, knowing all that... left them there with him. Knowing he was violent, knowing he didn't want them there, knowing that he'd texted that he was raging and about to snap. She left two little girls in his care knowing what a monster he was. The redacted report made it clear that it looks like they'd been hit with belts and had their heads flushed down the toilet and that she must have seen the younger child's injuries when she dressed her. The report says she failed to protect them and I really think that should have been reflected in the charges she faced later, I assume that they didn't have enough to legally charge/convict her with that and just stuck with what they thought they could get convictions for.

I noted that the report said that once they were aware of the texts and the domestic violence, and once BB was in custody and she was "safe" from him they kind of expected her to apply for custody of the younger child and were surprised that instead she stuck by him and let the little one go into care instead. I think that sums her up and shows exactly where her priorities lay.

Regarding the private social workers who managed Ellies' move to live with her parents... I'd like to know exactly what the payment arrangement was there. Were they paid by the hour/week etc or were they paid a set fee to cover the whole management of the transfer of care regardless of how long it took. I'd like to know if it was to their advantage financially to speed up the move, because even to a non professional like me, it seems madness to speed up a move when things are going badly. The obvious solution woudl appear to be to slow things down... so what was it that made those social workers do the opposite?

This may be random but I did wonder from the start how were the text messages found. Where they kept on their phones or were the deleted but recovered? Does it seem possible without their evidence it would have been harder to convict?

Very good point, along with the 11 visits allowed while both children were in care and I think I read a total of 6 were kept.

May be controversial but these two are a good example of people who should be sterilised :notgood: