GUILTY Uk - Emile Cilliers Accused Of Tampering W/ Wife's Parachute, Wiltshire, 5 April 2015

[Alyce]

I've been checking in here for the verdict since Friday. Am wondering if the sticking points are the other way and only 2 or 3 jurors think he is guilty? :frown:

Yes, it could be either way.

I'm thinking that he is so clearly guilty I don't understand what the problem is. But, as has been said, we have not seen any detailed report of the Judge's summing up.

One thing we have not heard about is whether the Jury have sent any notes back in to Court to query any part of the evidence.With this level of - apparent - stalemate, I might have expected this to happen.
Of course it could have happened and not been reported. However, with those journos tied up at the Court, surely at least one of them would have tweeted this info - they must be wanting something to do !

 

[Alyce]

Wonder if all 12 Jurors are there today ?

If there are only 11 - which would then further reduce to 10 on Friday - this could clear the way for a verdict.

If the missing 2 are both on the minority side ( assuming a 9 - 3 split ) then that would leave a 9 - 1 split, which is acceptable for a verdict.

It it's not that simple, then I can see a mistrial coming up.

 

[Tortoise]

[FONT=&amp]Two jurors in the Emile [/FONT]Cilliers[FONT=&amp] trial have been discharged due to illness. The remaining 10 are to resume deliberations.

https://twitter.com/gordonchree
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[Tortoise]

What is going on? A bit of this illowfight: ?

 

[Alyce]

Whatever next - almost going to be a case of will the last person to leave please turn out the lights

 

[Alyce]

Aaahhh....... just realised.

If neither of these 2 jurors is the juror who is going on holiday on Friday, then that means the Jury number goes down to 9 on Friday.

In which case, they have to return a unanimous verdict.

 

[Tortoise]

Incredible.

If it goes down to 9 and then they reach a unanimous verdict, it will mean that 3 were against which might give grounds for appeal - because they would not have been able to get that verdict out if they were all there.

I think they will be discharged if they don't come back very quickly now all in agreement. Even a majority verdict today of 9-1 shouldn't be accepted by the judge.

 

[Tortoise]

[FONT=&amp]Judge has told jury that 2 jurors have been discharged from the trial because they are unwell. It leaves 10 jurors. He's redirected the jury saying he will now accept a majority verdict of 9 to 1. Emile [/FONT]Cilliers[FONT=&amp] denies trying to murder his wife twice in 6 days.

https://twitter.com/BBCHelenaLee
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[Alyce]

I agree that if they dont produce a verdict by tomorrow night, I think the Judge will discharge them.
No point carrying on until Friday, when they will be down to 9 - because if they already had 9 who were in agreement, then they would be able to bring in the verdict today.

 

[Tortoise]

It fascinates me how people can be so divided over the same issues.

 

[Alyce]

At what point ( if at all ) does the foreman ( or woman ) of the Jury tell the Judge that they can't reach a verdict ? Or is the obligation on the Judge to ask that question ?

 

[Alyce]

It fascinates me how people can be so divided over the same issues.

They must be widely split to go on this long. I wonder if Victoria's admission that she lied has weighed heavily against her ?

 

[Tortoise]

I don't know the answer to that Alyce.

 

[Alyce]

Must be something crucial which is dividing them - unless ( as someone said elsewhere ! ) they have a few jurors who cannot grasp the concept of beyond reasonable doubt.

 

[Tortoise]

They must be widely split to go on this long. I wonder if Victoria's admission that she lied has weighed heavily against her ?

That would be my guess. But it seemed clear from the reporting that

She didn't loosen the gas valve
His blood was on the gas valve
He arranged the parachute jump
She didn't remove the slinks
Someone did remove the slinks
He was alone with the parachute and didn't put it back in the store
He thought he would gain financially from her death
He implied he would be available to his lover by April.

Where is the reasonable doubt?

 

[Tortoise]

[FONT=&amp]Jury in the trial of Emile [/FONT]Cilliers[FONT=&amp], accused of attempting to murder his wife, has been sent home for the night. Earlier, two members of the jury were discharged.Mr [/FONT]Cilliers[FONT=&amp] denies 2 counts of attempting to murder Victoria [/FONT]Cilliers[FONT=&amp], including one by tampering with her parachute.

https://twitter.com/kenned10
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[Shiressleuth]

What is going on? A bit of this illowfight: ?

Well I can only think they must be evenly split and no one is budging. Am I right in saying they could just find him guilty of one of the attempts? What was his explanation for the gas tap with his blood on it?

It also looks like a conviction for just one of the attempts would be the same as if it succeeded .I.e. a life term. Am I right on that ?

 

[Moll]

Exactly my view Tortoise - no reasonable doubt. As Alyce says, it could be someone doesn't get that concept.
I have also never understood the way it was said that Mrs Cilliers had 'lied' when she actually just seemed to have given a too-short estimate of the time he was in the toilet at first and then a too-long estimate when in fact she doesn't really know. But it is interesting that she has so completely refused to court sympathy and noteworthy that the sentimentalists haven't come out to support her.

You asked if this has 'weighed heavily against her' when it seemed to us that the prosecution case depended chiefly on verifiable fact. She wasn't trying to get her husband convicted by the time she came to court, for whatever reason, but that shouldn't detract from the case. Maybe it has done, though.

 

[Moll]

Well I can only think they must be evenly split and no one is budging. (RSBM)

I don't think you have to assume they are evenly split. It only takes two.

 

[Shiressleuth]

That would be my guess. But it seemed clear from the reporting that

She didn't loosen the gas valve
His blood was on the gas valve
He arranged the parachute jump
She didn't remove the slinks
Someone did remove the slinks
He was alone with the parachute and didn't put it back in the store
He thought he would gain financially from her death
He implied he would be available to his lover by April.

Where is the reasonable doubt?

The doubt is whether he had the time to sabotage it (VC said 2 minutes in the toilet then 5 minutes) and whether she could have sabotaged it herself, given her admission of suicidal feelings, and either changed her mind on the way down and frantically tried to untangle or make it look like she was doing that. However there seems to be no doubt on the gas tap incident. Except, if she seriously thought he was trying to kill her (the texts) , why go on a parachute jump where he has access to her chute?