GUILTY Uk - Emile Cilliers Accused Of Tampering W/ Wife's Parachute, Wiltshire, 5 April 2015

  • #261
I don't think you have to assume they are evenly split. It only takes two.
I'm not assuming anything. The reason I think it might be more evenly split is because, if it was just one or two, it may be more easy to change their minds, that's all.
 
  • #262
Exactly my view Tortoise - no reasonable doubt. As Alyce says, it could be someone doesn't get that concept.
I have also never understood the way it was said that Mrs Cilliers had 'lied' when she actually just seemed to have given a too-short estimate of the time he was in the toilet at first and then a too-long estimate when in fact she doesn't really know. But it is interesting that she has so completely refused to court sympathy and noteworthy that the sentimentalists haven't come out to support her.

You asked if this has 'weighed heavily against her' when it seemed to us that the prosecution case depended chiefly on verifiable fact. She wasn't trying to get her husband convicted by the time she came to court, for whatever reason, but that shouldn't detract from the case. Maybe it has done, though.

And they've even had confirmation from a toolmark expert that the mole grips were used to loosen and not tighten the nut. So, he gassed the house but it's just unlucky for him that the slinks were removed a week later, by someone who didn't know VC, or the storeman who he said was having an affair with VC...except that turned out to be another of his lies.

:thinking:
 
  • #263
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-41737936

This appears to show that a gas engineer stated the nut could have loosened by other means, which could be the reasonable doubt.

On the parachute, I will post another MSM article that could have instilled additional reasonable doubt IMO.

You may have already seen these so apologies if that is the case.
 
  • #264
  • #265
  • #266
After that he videoed himself removing the slinks in the toilet cubicle.
Oh so he proved it was possible after saying at first he doubted it? Well that cancels that out. Unless she sabotaged it herself by going back to her locker at some point. What about the gas engineer saying the nut could loosen by temperature changes or by use of the cupboard? Did that evidence get refuted?
 
  • #267
Re 'unless she sabotaged it herself' - the defence didn't try to say she was responsible, did they? The defence closing speech relied on the possibility of accident.
 
  • #268
I have a feeling we're heading towards a retrial.
 
  • #269
Oh so he proved it was possible after saying at first he doubted it? Well that cancels that out. Unless she sabotaged it herself by going back to her locker at some point. What about the gas engineer saying the nut could loosen by temperature changes or by use of the cupboard? Did that evidence get refuted?
Refuted by the tool mark expert and the blood.
 
  • #270
Interesting. Sounds like they may be closer than we think, numbers wise, and perhaps one or two being persuaded to change their verdict.



The judge in the trial of an Army sergeant accused of trying to murder his wife by tampering with her parachute has warned the jurors not to "bully" each other.
Nine women and three men have been deliberating since last Tuesday .


Mr Justice Sweeney gave the direction on Tuesday to jurors accept majority verdicts.

Ninety minutes after this, one of the jurors became ill.

On Wednesday, the forewoman also fell ill, with both jurors dismissed after the judge received medical certificates.

He told the jurors "Jury service is not easy; it never has been.

"Some trials require jurors to address deeply sensitive human problems, and some discussions may be fierce or tempestuous, with powerful arguments and counter-arguments.

"In such cases, discussions by their nature will be exhausting.

"However, and obviously, all must remain within the proper bounds of discussion, and not amount to improper pressure or bullying."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-42088018
 
  • #271
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...urder-trial-judge-warns-jurors-about-bullying

He told the remaning 10 that jury service was not easy and involved serious civic responsibility.

“By their very nature, some trials require jurors to address deeply sensitive human problems, and some discussions may be fierce or tempestuous, with powerful arguments and counterarguments,” he said.

“In such cases, discussions by their nature will be exhausting. However, and obviously, all must remain within the proper bounds of discussion, and not amount to improper pressure or bullying.

“Each member of the jury has equal responsibility for the verdicts, and whilst it is perhaps inevitable that different views will be expressed about different features of the case, confidence in the jury system ultimately depends upon the fact that there is mutual respect amongst members of the jury, and reasonable give and take between them, with an opportunity for each to be heard, and his or her opinions listened to respectfully and attentively, and then reasonably considered by all.”

I wonder if this was in response to anything specific.
 
  • #272
I have a feeling we're heading towards a retrial.
So do I. I suppose there's a slim chance the deliberations have been interrupted or delayed by people being unwell.
 
  • #273
Cross-posted with Alyce.
 
  • #274
Now for them to have medical certificates, they must have been seen by a doctor or equivalent. Which suggests to me that deliberations were put on hold during those periods, because they can't continue to discuss the case unless they are all there.

I'm wondering if it was stress-related illnesses for the judge to make those comments. I've never heard anything like it.
 
  • #275
The judge also advised the jury that he would not be able to preside on Friday as he was due to be at the Court of Appeal and that another juror would not be able to serve after Friday, bringing the panel down to nine if deliberations were still going on.

He said there were no 'time pressures on the remaining jurors to reach verdicts'.


He told them today: 'You have each taken an oath or affirmation to return true verdicts according to the evidence, and it is imperative that each of you is faithful to that.

'You have my original legal directions in writing which, as supplemented by my oral answer to your questions the other day, you must follow.


'Now that you are down to 10, the only majority verdict that I can accept is one upon which at least nine of you are agreed.

'I emphasise, with all the force that I can, that there remains no pressure of time.


As you know, one of your number cannot sit beyond tomorrow. In the event that your deliberations continue beyond that, and as I explained previously, she will then be discharged and we will continue with the remaining nine of you.


'But we will do that on Monday of the following week, as I am required to sit on another case altogether in the Court of Appeal on Friday.

'However, if there comes a point when you realise that there is no realistic prospect of nine of you reaching agreement, one way or the other, in relation to a Count or Counts you must say so.'




Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...llying-trial-army-sergeant.html#ixzz4zCIzURaK

 
  • #276
Now for them to have medical certificates, they must have been seen by a doctor or equivalent. Which suggests to me that deliberations were put on hold during those periods, because they can't continue to discuss the case unless they are all there.

I'm wondering if it was stress-related illnesses for the judge to make those comments. I've never heard anything like it.

There have been a number of times when the court listings show a delay in proceedings but don't say the jury are considering their verdict, which might fit.

I was quite willing to think the ailing jurors were being felled by one of the viruses current at this time of year but now wonder. It's very strange, and surely the judge's remarks must be in response to something specific.
 
  • #277
I can see an appeal coming out of this if they ever do agree on a conviction.
 
  • #278
I see the Mail refers to 'both departed women' and it's a woman who's going on holiday. What was the gender balance before, do we know?
 
  • #279
I see the Mail refers to 'both departed woman' and it's a woman who's going on holiday. What was the gender balance before, do we know?
9 women 3 men.
 
  • #280

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