UK - Healthcare worker arrested on suspicion of murder/attempted murder of a number of babies, 2018

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  • #641
Considering the fact that the investigation has been going on for years and LL has been arrested twice before finally being charged, I'm definitely concerned about the possibility of tunnel vision on side of the police being a possible issue here.

Speaking as a Dutch criminal lawyer, this case definitely has some strong Lucia de Berk vibes.

Exactly!

I'll admit that I'm becoming quite obsessed with this case (and perhaps I'm falling into the "Tunnel Vision" thing myself, although I hope not) but there is something deeply unsettling about this. Deeply unsettling. There is something that I just can't put my finger on here, I don't know what it is but the entire progress of this case just seems so weirdly bizarre. This is not how criminal cases, especially very serious ones, go down here. It's just too strange for words quite honestly.

This girl is not a child killer, she just isn't. Something is very "off" about this case.
 
  • #642
I'm going to reserve judgement until we hear the evidence. Six months is a long time to be on remand though.
 
  • #643
It'll be absolutely staggering if she's found innocent after being arrested for the alleged murders 3 times and being kept in prison for 6 months on remand. Stranger things have happened. But rarely.
 
  • #644
It'll be absolutely staggering if she's found innocent after being arrested for the alleged murders 3 times and being kept in prison for 6 months on remand. Stranger things have happened. But rarely.

The trial isn't slated to start proper until 11th January so if she isn't granted bail then she'll have been remanded for well in excess of a year at that point! Also, the trial is planned to last up to six months!!!

I wonder what's actually going to happen tomorrow? She must surely be given the opportunity to enter a plea, one would think? I wonder whether her QC is going to make a bail application?
 
  • #645
Also, the trial is planned to last up to six months!!!

:eek::eek::eek:

And with the Wayne Couzens trial due to start in October 2021, we'll only just be getting over all of that before this one starts!
 
  • #646
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  • #648
So...she must be allowed out on bail soon. It must be nearing that now.

So glad we have this sort of limit.

179 days, apparently.
 
  • #649

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BBM

A provisional trial date of January 2022, as set in Letby's previous court hearing, may be put back due to the complexity of the case, the court heard.

[...]

A hearing will be held on Monday, May 17 for an agreed timetable to be put forward.

Justice Dove added while Letby would not need to enter a plea today, it would be necessary for her to be arraigned "in the relatively near future."

He said: "We can't allow that important stage to drift indefinitely."

more to read at link

Families involved in case of Chester healthcare worker Lucy Letby would be able to watch trial remotely






Ellesmere Port & Neston Standard
@EPortStandard

·
26m


Lucy letby appeared in court via videolink this morning:
 
  • #654
Yeah, just read that article.

No idea of what to make of this now, tbh. Can't see a guilty plea coming as if that was what she intended then surely they'd have let her by now?
 
  • #655
Timeline-wise I’m seeing some similarities with the case against Victorino Chao:

2011 Stepping Hill Hospital poisoning incident - Wikipedia

In that case, the murders took place during a short period, from the end of June 2011 to mid-July 2011. Chao was first arrested in January 2012 and finally charged in March 2014. The trial took place over a period of 4 months and he was found guilty on May 18th 2015. With that in mind 6 months for LL's case doesn’t seem to be unusually long period of time for a trial. People can read the sentencing remarks in the Chao case here for more information:

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/r-v-chua-sentencing.pdf

Of course, in the Chao case the method used was well-known (saline ampoules and saline drips had been contaminated with insulin), whereas in this case we have absolutely no idea how LL is supposed to have killed the victims. Here is a link to two articles when Chao was arrested in 2014:

Stepping Hill deaths: nurse Victorino Chua charged with murder

Nurse re-arrested in Stepping Hill poison probe

Note that in both articles the method used is clearly mentioned, unlike the news articles in LL's case. Also interesting to note is that Chao was charged with multiple offences of attempting to administer poison, but LL is not.

This, combined with the fact that it has been continuously emphasized that this is a highly complex and difficult investigation, seems to be an indication to me that (unlike the case against Chao) the method of death is unknown and the police has no clear direct evidence of LL poisoning the alleged victims. It may well be that this prosecution primarily rests on a correlation between LL’s working pattern and the incidence of deaths and emergencies (as in the case against Lucia de Berk). If that’s the case, the following caveat applies: Post hoc ergo propter hoc (correlation does not imply causation)!
 
  • #656
Yes, noone ever looked less like a babykiller. As I said before, I can only surmise that there is something dark in her past that has possibly come to light now as corroborating evidence - maybe as a child she made a habit of drowning her kittens, or some such.
 
  • #657
I don't know if some of the comments (not directing at anyone) mean physically she doesn't look like a killer, but her physical appearance is irrelevant. Reminds me of women not thinking Ted Bundy could have killed anyone.
 
  • #658
I don't know if some of the comments (not directing at anyone) mean physically she doesn't look like a killer, but her physical appearance is irrelevant. Reminds me of women not thinking Ted Bundy could have killed anyone.

I think that when people refer to how she "looks" they aren't simply receding to her physical appearance in isolation. Its more to do with her demeanor and how she presents herself. Traci Andrews wasnt too taxing on the eyes but she was clearly a lunatic.

LL's photos are taken in ordinary social situations which are entirely normal for a woman of her age. She clearly has friends who think enough of her to take those photos and post them on social media. I don't recall seeing similar photos of any serial killer ever. Indeed, when it comes out they almost all seem to be weird loners with very few friends - usually because people dont want to be associated with them. The likes of Ted Bundy may have presented as charming to his victims and potential victims but that was never something he had to keep up for any length of time.
 
  • #659
I think that when people refer to how she "looks" they aren't simply receding to her physical appearance in isolation. Its more to do with her demeanor and how she presents herself. Traci Andrews wasnt too taxing on the eyes but she was clearly a lunatic.

LL's photos are taken in ordinary social situations which are entirely normal for a woman of her age. She clearly has friends who think enough of her to take those photos and post them on social media. I don't recall seeing similar photos of any serial killer ever. Indeed, when it comes out they almost all seem to be weird loners with very few friends - usually because people dont want to be associated with them. The likes of Ted Bundy may have presented as charming to his victims and potential victims but that was never something he had to keep up for any length of time.


Adding to this - from the released photos she seems modest, educated, slightly shy, middle class, “normal”. Of course appearances can be deceiving, and of course none of these factors preclude somebody from being a murderer, even if accurately surmised.

But the human brain is programmed to seek patterns and create quick assumptions based on that. It makes perfect sense that most people would look at her and think “I’m safe, she’s not a threat”. It’s just evolutionary shorthand to save us starting from scratch assessing every new encounter - and anyone who pretends to be immune or above such biases is not being entirely honest, or is a robot.

My money here (if she is indeed found guilty) is still on an “angel of mercy” type situation. Most people have no idea the agonised suffering that pre-term babies can endure in hospital, and often we work so hard to preserve life in these babies only for them to go on and live short, difficult and painful lives with disability and further hardship throughout.

NOT saying that justifies anything, or that any of those lives are less valuable or important - personally, I think it’s all the more reason to show them love and compassion.

But I can certainly imagine a relatively informed, educated but pathologically detached viewpoint where somebody begins to think they’re better off “out of their misery”, so to speak.
 
  • #660
I'm sure that the prosecution said that part of the argument for remanding her was for her own safety. I think primarily to keep her safe from herself as she is apparently not in a great state of mind.

I find it very hard to believe that the best place for somebody experiencing suicidal thoughts or extremely low mood is in prison. If that were true, surely we’d put all suicidal people into jail for recovery - but we don’t. We section them and put them in safe and appropriate medical care.
Which could actually work in their favour right now, if they’re looking to keep her secure for longer than she should typically be held on remand.

Is it possible that the delay in hearing a plea is related to her mental health at all? Would it be stated if it were due to pending assessment / lack of capacity to consent?
 
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