UK - Healthcare worker arrested on suspicion of murder/attempted murder of a number of babies, 2018

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  • #701
  • #702
  • #703
I'm presuming its down to the volume of work .. awful situation for all involved though
 
  • #704
This isn’t just for your satisfaction! If your baby had died you would want to make sure justice was done.

I realise that and agree. There are legitimate issues with people's rights to a fair and speedy trial though. If they are debating the nature of the evidence then it might suggest that the prosecution hasn't got their ducks in a row here. If that's the case then they shouldn't have charged her until they did. It's not as though she was going anywhere.

However, both sides have agreed to this so we shall just have to wait and see.
 
  • #705
I don't have a strong opinion one way or another, but just thought it would be informative to post some information about a recent case in the US with an angel of mercy who killed a number of veterans who had dementia in a VA hospital. There's some good information about the investigation although little about the motive, at least in this article, but I assume that it is an angel of mercy case where she felt sorry for them to an extent but, you never know what evil lurks in someone's heart.

'I know that judgment will come one day': Veterans Affairs hospital serial killer gets life in prison | WV News | wvnews.com
 
  • #706
That article won't open here due to legal restrictions, unfortunately.
 
  • #707
hasnt remand time been extented because of corona virus

Yes, it's apparently been extended up to 238 days. She was charged on 11th November, I think, so according to Mr Google 238 days will be up on 7th July.
 
  • #708
Yes, it's apparently been extended up to 238 days. She was charged on 11th November, I think, so according to Mr Google 238 days will be up on 7th July.

It'll be interesting to see what'll happen to her on the 8th July then....
 
  • #709
It'll be interesting to see what'll happen to her on the 8th July then....

It will. I'm not fully conversant with the rules but I'm guessing that there will be some facility to remand someone beyond that time in certain cases.
 
  • #710
It will. I'm not fully conversant with the rules but I'm guessing that there will be some facility to remand someone beyond that time in certain cases.

Yes, they will make a mitigating circumstances case. One of the reasons she's on remand is for her own safety, so I can't see her being released. But then, to spend another year in prison doesn't seem quite right, as she could be innocent. But short of releasing her and changing her identity until the trial, I can't see what else they can do, but keep her in prison.
I think this case seems to be setting precedents already....
 
  • #711
Yes, they will make a mitigating circumstances case. One of the reasons she's on remand is for her own safety, so I can't see her being released. But then, to spend another year in prison doesn't seem quite right, as she could be innocent. But short of releasing her and changing her identity until the trial, I can't see what else they can do, but keep her in prison.
I think this case seems to be setting precedents already....

I think you're right. Reading between the lines from statements made by her defence at her early Court appearances, saying that she wanted "a resolution to the matter ASAP", might tend to suggest that any risk to her safety might actually come from herself. I'm not convinced that she'll actually be attacked if she were granted bail but any harassment or stalking might have dramatic consequences for her state of mind.

It may actually be the case that prison is the safest place for her.

Having said all that, if the July 2020 date sticks then she'll have been on remand for twenty months at that point and will have had restrictions on her liberty for knocking on four years due to having been on police bail since July 2018. If she's innocent and is subsequently acquitted then the damage to her mental health could be catastrophic.
 
  • #712
I don't have a strong opinion one way or another, but just thought it would be informative to post some information about a recent case in the US with an angel of mercy who killed a number of veterans who had dementia in a VA hospital. There's some good information about the investigation although little about the motive, at least in this article, but I assume that it is an angel of mercy case where she felt sorry for them to an extent but, you never know what evil lurks in someone's heart.

'I know that judgment will come one day': Veterans Affairs hospital serial killer gets life in prison | WV News | wvnews.com

Replying to my own post here for those that can't read the article with some quotes from it (keeping in mind the 10% rule). Although she definitely did it and did plea guilty in the end, there were a lot of glaring errors and oversight and mismanagement at the hospital was a contributing factor to why she was able to get away with it and repeat it. The article doesn't mention that the US Office of Inspector General issued a pretty scathing report as to the failures. Also below are some details on what was investigated, etc.

"Mays is serving seven consecutive life sentences for murdering elderly patients at the Louis A. Johnson VA Medical Center by giving them lethal injections of insulin. She is serving another 20-year sentence, also consecutive, for trying to kill an eighth elderly patient. Seven of the patients had some form of dementia."

SNIPPED

"Families have been asking questions since they realized the scope of Mays’ crimes. Mainly, they want to know why Mays wasn’t caught after the first murder, or even the second. And especially how five more homicides and the attempt at a sixth weren’t prevented."

SNIPPED

"Video surveillance in the hospital didn’t reach the rooms where Mays injected the victims. Mays was careful to avoid someone seeing her commit the crimes. The hospital’s shortcomings played a role, too, due to the lack of security for insulin and tracking of its use. Finally, even after investigators identified Mays as a person of interest, she didn’t confess despite hours of questioning over three interviews."

SNIPPED and BELOW SHOWS HOW THEY PROVED IT

"A pathologist autopsied the exhumed bodies. The military pathologist ruled out other possible causes of death, concluding insulin was involved. An endocrinologist ran cutting-edge testing on the bodies that had been buried for months to find out where the injections had occurred. A pharmacokineticist also identified a time range when the patients were injected, Douglas said.

Human resources records for 1,200 employees were reviewed. This pointed to four people working at all the times the crimes were committed. That was narrowed further to Mays. She was the only one of the four who worked on Ward 3A, where all the homicides occurred, according to Douglas."
 
  • #713
Wow - that's really interesting!
 
  • #714
Human resources records for 1,200 employees were reviewed. This pointed to four people working at all the times the crimes were committed. That was narrowed further to Mays. She was the only one of the four who worked on Ward 3A, where all the homicides occurred, according to Douglas."

That is U.S. law, and here in the UK this would only be classed as circumstancial evidence.
That is what happened in the Beverley Allitt case (a paediatric nurse also accused and found guilty back in the 80s.)

She was present in all the wards at the time, but that wasn't enough to convict her alone, and the police had to find forensic evidence that would pinpoint her and her only...and they did. They found evidence at her home. (Syringes and insulin and the like, missing from the hospital. )

More at the link below:

How I caught Beverley Allitt, the 'Angel of Death'
 
  • #715
Is it LL who doesn’t want to enter a plea yet? It seems that way, as usually a plea is entered at the earliest opportunity especially if the accused is going not guilty. Maybe the defence are waiting for the prosecution to turn over the evidence they have against her.. if the evidence is overwhelming or difficult to refute then it may influence her plea.

In regards to LL not ‘looking’ like a murderer, killers come in all shapes and sizes and many may appear innocent and caring. Sociopaths are very good at hiding behind a kind persona. People can have bad thoughts and commit evil crimes whilst looking like the sweetest person you could ever meet. It’s why murderers are so interesting IMO, there is not a certain look of a killer. There will not always be a background of violence or unruly behaviour, especially when it comes to an ‘angel of mercy’.

If that’s the case then admission of believing she was ‘helping’ the victims, along with maybe mental illness contributing, a guilty plea may change the sentence and also where she may serve any sentence. If she goes guilty there is a chance that she could receive some leniency when it comes to sentencing, which might be the difference between a 25 year sentence or a whole life tariff.

She’s probably facing a whole life tariff if she goes to trial and is found guilty, the prosecution will attempt to paint her as a merciless, evil killer. With so many victims and even more attempted murders, the prosecution are going to go in hard. The fact the victims were tiny defenceless babies will be hammered into the jury. If she did do this and her defence team know there is evidence stacked against her, they might be trying to weigh up whether it’s worth the risk of a trial where they could completely nail her and send her away for the rest of her life, or a guilty plea that may mean she will be released some day.

If this was a US case we would have heard all about the evidence but in the UK it is all kept under guard until a trial or admission of guilt, it’s going to be a while before we learn the ins and outs but ultimately the victims and their families are the focus of this, if it’s annoying for us to wait until July next year then imagine what the parents of the babies who were killed are feeling. All MOO
 
  • #716
The defendant doesn't have the right to choose when they enter their plea; I think the issue here is that the prosecution, defence and the Court are engaging in legitimate conversations as to the nature and veracity of the evidence that is being offered. As per my post on the previous page, I suspect that the defence and court want to be very sure as to the the nature of the evidence is sufficient to warrant the charges especially in relation to the ones of attempted murder. It's a very difficult thing to prove and what evidence could they possibly have so long after the events? Personally, I doubt that the evidence is irrefutable or beyond doubt as if it were that strong then why have they not agreed to accept a plea? I'd not be surprised at all if those charges were dropped or thrown out.

I don't think there is much scope for leniency in sentencing here; it will be a murder conviction relating to multiple victims, all under her care at the time. The starting point for that is a whole life order and I don't see what factors the court could apply in order to reduce that.

I know it's frustrating to not know much at present but I think that the system we have is leagues ahead of the US one where the result is often a trial by media or Facebook.

Just a mention on your final sentence; we don't know that these babies were "killed" at all. They died but we don't have any evidence that they were actually killed by anyone.
 
  • #717
Curiouser and curiouser. I am presuming due to the technical issues apparent today with the remote link LL back in court at some point again this week.
Poor parents. This is horrible for them.
 
  • #718
Yes apparently hearing adjourned until later in the week due to the tech difficulties-
Proposed trial date for Chester nurse Lucy Letby delayed

Lucy couldn't hear the proceedings. Also in the article it states it was the view of both the prosecution and defence that the original proposed trial date of January 2022 "cannot be met". Interesting that the defence didn't want the trial to be January either, not sure what this indicates especially since she was supposed to be eager for a resolution as quickly as possible.
 
  • #719
Personally, I doubt that the evidence is irrefutable or beyond doubt as if it were that strong then why have they not agreed to accept a plea? I'd not be surprised at all if those charges were dropped or thrown out.

Oh Lord, could you imagine the media furore?!
Lucy has been arrested 3 times for this already. If it's thrown out, would she be arrested a 4th time if there is further evidence? When would it end?
It will reduce the whole shebang to an absolute farce.
 
  • #720
Yes apparently hearing adjourned until later in the week due to the tech difficulties-
Proposed trial date for Chester nurse Lucy Letby delayed

Lucy couldn't hear the proceedings. Also in the article it states it was the view of both the prosecution and defence that the original proposed trial date of January 2022 "cannot be met". Interesting that the defence didn't want the trial to be January either, not sure what this indicates especially since she was supposed to be eager for a resolution as quickly as possible.

Yep, no idea what this all means; did she originally want is resolved ASAP because she's guilty; because she isn't and had just given up, or because she isn't and wanted to fight her case? I suppose whether guilty or not that a lot can change after being banged up for six months.
 
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