UK - Healthcare worker arrested on suspicion of murder/attempted murder of a number of babies, 2018

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  • #721
Oh Lord, could you imagine the media furore?!
Lucy has been arrested 3 times for this already. If it's thrown out, would she be arrested a 4th time if there is further evidence? When would it end?
It will reduce the whole shebang to an absolute farce.

I'm not sure what the rules are about re-charging if the original charges are dismissed or withdrawn. We're probably looking at very esoteric and unusual legal rules that most lawyers will never encounter in their entire careers though.

I cant imagine that the putting back of the trial is due to anything other than questions as to the relevance and standard of the evidence though. What else could cause that sort of delay?

On the matter of the media; this is something I find really weird. Yes, the case has had coverage but I'm quite surprised at how few people have heard of it given that its been going on for years and if convicted she'll be one of the most prolific serial killers in British history. I've spoken to lots of people since I first heard of it at her arrest in November and most people had no idea of it or had a very dim recollection of it from when she was first arrested. I was at hospital getting bloods done three days ago and the nurse there had barely heard of it. I'd have thought that a nurse being picked up for murdering babies would have been all over the nursing profession, to be honest.

It's plausible that the media have more of an insight into this than we may realise and may not be ramping it because there ultimately isn't a story if they believe her to be innocent. My ex was a journalist for ten plus years and they often know a LOT more about cases than they print or are allowed to print. Contrast LL's case with that of Beverly Allitt and that was all over the TV and print media incessantly. Alternatively, though, I suppose they might think shes guilty as hell and are doing everything to not endanger the case. It does seem remarkably restrained of them though.
 
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  • #722
It’s listed AGAIN tomorrow for a further case management.
 
  • #723
  • #724
I'm not convinced at all they are questioning the standard of the evidence...id say far more likely its the sheer volume of documents, witnesses , expert witnesses involved ..more "admin" due to the number of victims
 
  • #725
Yes 10am at Manchester via video link again
 
  • #726
I'm not convinced at all they are questioning the standard of the evidence...id say far more likely its the sheer volume of documents, witnesses , expert witnesses involved ..more "admin" due to the number of victims

Yes, that's sort of what I was getting at. The length of time that it takes to assess what the evidence actually is and whether they need to employ experts to refute it and suchlike.
 
  • #727
It's plausible that the media have more of an insight into this than we may realise and may not be ramping it because there ultimately isn't a story if they believe her to be innocent. My ex was a journalist for ten plus years and they often know a LOT more about cases than they print or are allowed to print. Contrast LL's case with that of Beverly Allitt and that was all over the TV and print media incessantly. Alternatively, though, I suppose they might think shes guilty as hell and are doing everything to not endanger the case. It does seem remarkably restrained of them though.

I think the issue is that these days with wall to wall news and social media, news is viewed and discussed in such a different way. There have been too many cases now where social media or news consumption has effected the case. So it makes perfect sense to me that the media don't mention things which could come up in a court case and which could prejudice the court case. It's bad enough the poor families have to wait so long, let alone the case being dismissed because of media coverage.

Facebook juror jailed for eight months
"Sentencing Fraill, the judge said in a written ruling: "Her conduct in visiting the internet repeatedly was directly contrary to her oath as a juror, and her contact with the acquitted defendant, as well as her repeated searches on the internet, constituted flagrant breaches of the orders made by the judge for the proper conduct of the trial."

Juror jailed over online research
"A former university lecturer who carried out online research about a criminal defendant while serving as a juror has been jailed for six months."
"The case highlights the growing problem courts face in ensuring jurors do not use the internet to investigate cases in an era when looking facts up on a computer seems an increasingly natural instinct."


When jurors go ‘rogue’ on the Internet and social media …
"The Law Commission (2012) (p. 62) identified at least 18 appeals in the UK since 2005 related to juror misconduct during criminal trials, some of which involved Internet access or social media use. "

How prejudicial reporting has led to collapsed trials
"Bellfield was convicted on Thursday of murdering Milly Dowler - but the jury were still considering a separate charge that Bellfield had attempted to abduct an 11-year-old girl.
Defence counsel argued that the jury could no longer reach a fair verdict on this outstanding charge because of some of the coverage of the case following Bellfield's conviction."
 
  • #728
Hearing Finished!
 
  • #729
Lucy Letby, 31, is to stand trial on 4 July 2022 at Manchester Crown Court.

Mr Justice Dove set the schedule for the trial, which is estimated to last for six months, during a hearing at Liverpool Crown Court earlier.

A further pre-trial hearing will be held in October.

Lucy Letby: Trial date set for nurse accused of baby murders
 
  • #730
  • #731
They must have something because if they were going to use someone as a ‘scapegoat’ do you really think they would choose someone like LL who by all accounts appears to be a well liked and respected person? It would be someone who has a track record of violence or atleast a hint of something not being quite right. They’re not going to go after a young woman who appeared to love her job and lead a normal life just for a scapegoat. They must be holding something very close to their chest that can’t be refuted in this case IMO.

By all means she ‘looks’ like someone who would’ve been easily cleared had there not been evidence.. in the early days of the investigation I doubt she was the immediate focus, in other words I don’t think they’d have focused on LL unless they had good reason to. We don’t know her demeanour when talking to police, we don’t know if she went no comment or gave off red flags by acting shifty. The fact she was arrested, released and then rearrested only strengthens my belief that they found something that points to her as the perpetrator. I believe those babies were killed as that’s what the parents have also been told, I think they must have solid evidence to have held her in custody for so long. They’re not going to accuse her of murder, hold her in custody for this long and be going to trial next year if they have nothing. JMO
 
  • #732
They must have something because if they were going to use someone as a ‘scapegoat’ do you really think they would choose someone like LL who by all accounts appears to be a well liked and respected person? It would be someone who has a track record of violence or atleast a hint of something not being quite right. They’re not going to go after a young woman who appeared to love her job and lead a normal life just for a scapegoat. They must be holding something very close to their chest that can’t be refuted in this case IMO.

By all means she ‘looks’ like someone who would’ve been easily cleared had there not been evidence.. in the early days of the investigation I doubt she was the immediate focus, in other words I don’t think they’d have focused on LL unless they had good reason to. We don’t know her demeanour when talking to police, we don’t know if she went no comment or gave off red flags by acting shifty. The fact she was arrested, released and then rearrested only strengthens my belief that they found something that points to her as the perpetrator. I believe those babies were killed as that’s what the parents have also been told, I think they must have solid evidence to have held her in custody for so long. They’re not going to accuse her of murder, hold her in custody for this long and be going to trial next year if they have nothing. JMO

When people refer to her as being a Scapegoat I think they may be getting it a bit wrong, or at least missing the nuances of the situation; I don't believe for one minute (if she's innocent) that someone has actively gone out of their way in order to "fit her up" for something like this, certainly not the police and if anyone else had done then I find it inconceivable that the police would not have spotted it. If she's taking the fall for NHS failings then it will be along the lines of no one saying, or being able to say, where the police are going wrong. If you are a hospital manager in a department that had had excess deaths that you knew were likely down to your and your subordinates mismanagement and the police had someone in the frame which removed you from the equation then there is little incentive to speak up.

I agree that she certainly isn't the type you'd select to fit-up but if the police had identified her on their own then you might argue that someone who was more responsible might rationalise that she's worth the collateral damage; she's unmarried, no kids, maybe hasn't got much family other than parents so far fewer other people to be affected by her going away for ever.

You may be right that they may have something irrefutable against her. It's certainly a possibility but if what they have is so irrefutable then I'd question as to why this case is quite so enormous; I appreciate that there a lot of potential victims and lots of charges each of which need to be given individual consideration and then the defence needs to be given their chance to refute but a six month trial involving "irrefutable" levels of evidence sounds almost like a contradiction-in-terms. Also, how is it that this evidence only came to light in November, or thereabouts, after years of investigation by both the hospital and the police?

I accept without reservation that she might be guilty. There is, however, something about this case, about this defendant, about these particular circumstances which seem strange and "off" as myself and others have described it. Something feels different here but I can't quite put my finger on what that is.

This isn't just me and a few others on here saying it either, there are loads of discussion sites out there where people are saying essentially the same thing - that she just doesn't fit any sort of profile we've seen in other serial murderers - people who seem in no way connected to her or the area. The "Wisdom Of Crowds" thing is real and is why the bookies are so good at predicting election results. Often more accurately than the opinion pollsters. So many unconnected people saying essentially the same thing cannot be easily dismissed.

I've never been bothered or concerned about criminals, especially those who have committed heinous crimes, being given very long sentences including whole life ones. I just can't get away from the feeling that something is very wrong with this one though. The prospect of Lucy Letby being given a while life order, which she almost certainly will be if convicted, I find deeply unsettling for some reason. A reason I just can't fathom for the life of me.
 
  • #733
Totally agree Maranz
Something VERY off IMHO.
 
  • #734
They must have something because if they were going to use someone as a ‘scapegoat’ do you really think they would choose someone like LL who by all accounts appears to be a well liked and respected person? It would be someone who has a track record of violence or atleast a hint of something not being quite right. They’re not going to go after a young woman who appeared to love her job and lead a normal life just for a scapegoat. They must be holding something very close to their chest that can’t be refuted in this case IMO.

By all means she ‘looks’ like someone who would’ve been easily cleared had there not been evidence.. in the early days of the investigation I doubt she was the immediate focus, in other words I don’t think they’d have focused on LL unless they had good reason to. We don’t know her demeanour when talking to police, we don’t know if she went no comment or gave off red flags by acting shifty. The fact she was arrested, released and then rearrested only strengthens my belief that they found something that points to her as the perpetrator. I believe those babies were killed as that’s what the parents have also been told, I think they must have solid evidence to have held her in custody for so long. They’re not going to accuse her of murder, hold her in custody for this long and be going to trial next year if they have nothing. JMO

Excellent points. They definitely have evidence that they think is solid, and sufficient for a conviction.
 
  • #735
i do think this trial is going to be very complicated very complex and very emotional, to think 12 random members of the public are expected to take all this in than make a decision. It's not your usual type of jury duty is it.
 
  • #736
I pity the 12 jurors who get selected for this trial. I myself wouldn't have the mental stamina for 6 months of it, and I'm not sure many people would. The process would be exhausting physically, mentally and spiritually. :(
 
  • #737
i do think this trial is going to be very complicated very complex and very emotional, to think 12 random members of the public are expected to take all this in than make a decision. It's not your usual type of jury duty is it.

We discussed a few pages back as to whether "Bench" trials (a trial by a panel of judges, rather than a jury) were on option. They aren't unless under very specific circumstances. If they were, and it were me in a similar position, I think I'd be very seriously considering taking that option.

There will be enormous pressure on the jury in this case; it's going to last for months, the evidence is going to be of a highly specialised nature and there will be huge amounts of it. It is also going to be extremely emotive in nature.

A jury will, I think, find itself under huge pressure to convict and there is also the potential of inbuilt bias to be taken into account - it's already had to be moved from Chester to Manchester, after all. If I were the accused the thought of the FB brigade who'd already decided I'm guilty sitting in judgement of me would be terrifying. There are some insane theories on those groups of late (one person was stating quite vehemently that the delay in the start of the trial was down to the defence playing games because remand time counts as double for sentence credit purposes - so you do 2 years on remand and you get 4 off your sentence!) and a lot of these people don't really seem to care whether she's guilty or not they just want blood. I'd much rather put myself in front of a panel of judges, or even a single judge, I think, rather than risk someone like that on the jury.
 
  • #738
i think trials by a panel of judges is only in appeals in england.a friend of mine has just been sentenced he was on remand for 10months he only got time served for being on remand
 
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  • #739
i think trials by a panel of judges is only in appeals in england.a friend of mine has just been sentenced he was on remand for 10months he only got time served for being on remand

Yes, appeal cases are heard by Judges.

Your example rather puts the Facebook genius in their place - if the proper sentence in your friend's case had been five months then what would the outcome have been - incarcerate the prosecuting Barrister for ten months (double time credit rule, remember)? The idea that such people are allowed, nay required, to sit in judgement of others a frightening, quite frankly.
 
  • #740
Yes, appeal cases are heard by Judges.

Your example rather puts the Facebook genius in their place - if the proper sentence in your friend's case had been five months then what would the outcome have been - incarcerate the prosecuting Barrister for ten months (double time credit rule, remember)? The idea that such people are allowed, nay required, to sit in judgement of others a frightening, quite frankly.
So are you saying he should ask about his remand time only being counted as time spent ?
 
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