GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #16

[whiterum]

A young tenant in killed in her own flat. She screams as she is attacked and strangled. The killer goes back and forth between flats, carrying a body, stopping en route for a rest. Security lights going on and off. Goes out to the road to his car brings it in to the driveway, lets the engine run for a time. Then he carries the body to the boot, couldn't get the body in, had to try a couple of times This all done in a small block of flats and no-one at all heard or saw a thing that night.

Seems they're all so neighbourhood watch savvy, there's no need for a burglar alarm.

 

[Cherwell]

Might have been a lot different on a midsummer evening, but it was an icy cold December night, and everyone was snug inside with curtains drawn. The only really dodgy bit was bringing the body round to his flat, but no one would have seen anything to the side because of the scaffolding on 42, and the only ground floor windows he passed were hers and his own.

You say "small block of flats", but this is an opulent and solid Victorian building with thick walls and high ceilings.

 

[Tricksy]

That's possible. Would the prosecution know, at the point that they agreed a written statement would suffice, exactly how the defence might use that testimony in their summation. And if so, why did the prosecution not want Mr Hardiman in court in order to establish he was asleep at the time and has hearing difficulties I wonder

As I understand it (and I am rusty here, so please correct me if I am wrong!), a written statement has to be agreed by both sides. That it is served at least seven days before it is to be tendered in evidence and there is no objection to the statement within seven days.

If there is any objection outside of that time period then it is advised that the witness be called in to Court.

I think in this case they are all pretty well experienced legal minds, so they will know the angle the defence will be going for.

I would think that they are not too bothered by the evidence this witness was giving, hence it coming in written form.

Written statements can be a bit risky, because the jury like to see a witness, to assess their beleiveability etc in Court. However, imho I think the evidence that this witness gave is really not going to have that big an impact on this jury. I could be wrong, but posters on here have also said themselves that there was little content to the statement.

 

[Neurotripsy]

Ifrom what little you've seen; would you say it is worth trying to form a picture on the pieces of the puzzle we have to hand? or is it an impossible task with the fragments that are in the public domain?

From what I heard today I believe there is some truth in what VT has said re flirting with Joanna, but I believe he is the one who initiated it and she had no part in it and simply reacted to his overzealous attempt. All my opinion only, though, and since I haven't heard the other points of law there is definitely much more to it. As I've mentioned before, I firmly believe VT gained access to the flat using the cat, I don't believe it was premeditated and I don't believe it was VT on the Waitrose CCTV footage. He panicked but I wouldn't in a million years call it manslaughter. I really hope they do release ALL the information as the matters discussed today seem like some of the key puzzle pieces and it's unfortunate they can't be loopholed in as evidence.

Off to bed now, getting up earlier at three as I'm paranoid I'll be too late!

 

[Cherwell]

It's interesting how travel changes you isn't it? A year in Paris when young would be unforgettable. I too travelled in Europe when I was a student and post-student but then I went to America for several months. I found American life and way of doing things and seeing the world very different and that showed me myself and my own life in a way I had not seen before. Coming back can make everything seem small and confining at first.

Anyway, I was wondering if it might have made VT more likely to approach neighbours in an easy social manner that he wouldn't have done before.

I think that might be the case if Tabak was English, but let's not forget he is Dutch. I've spent quite a bit of time in the Netherlands and have always found the Dutch people to be very outgoing and friendly as a rule. It's quite common for strangers to greet you in passing, "good morning, lovely day isn't it" style of thing. So I would have thought he would already be used to this easygoing manner, having grown up with it.

 

[goldielox]

Re: plea bargaining



Ah, what you describe is not plea bargaining: it is an official part of the judicial process, as laid down in sentencing guidelines.

The level of reduction in a sentence is at the discretion of the court, but sentencing guidelines say that there should usually be a reduction of the sentence:

by one third where the accused pleads guilty at the first opportunity

by one quarter for a guilty plea after the trial date has been set

by one tenth for a guilty plea entered "at the door of the court".

I cannot say whether your guy would have got 11 years if he hadn't changed his plea at the door of the court.

Not plea bargaining in the strictest sense I agree, but bargaining when he was "at the door" and delaying the trial for three hours all the same. The sentence indication came from the judge. What she didn't let on about was her plans to stick on an extra 2 years extended sentence for him being a danger to the public (which he was). For a not guilty I reckon he'd have got 12 years (10 plus the extra 2 again). He did actually deserve the sentence he got. The indicated and grossly underestimated 4-6 years carrot however is what I didn't like then, and aside from this particular case and speaking generally now- I still don't.

Anyway back to VT. No doubt this was going on when he was "at the door" on the first day too. The last ditch attempt to get him to go guilty.

 

[whiterum]

Might have been a lot different on a midsummer evening, but it was an icy cold December night, and everyone was snug inside with curtains drawn. The only really dodgy bit was bringing the body round to his flat, but no one would have seen anything to the side because of the scaffolding on 42, and the only ground floor windows he passed were hers and his own.

You say "small block of flats", but this is an opulent and solid Victorian building with thick walls and high ceilings.

Yes it is a large detached house turned into flats. Security lights will go on and off when there is movement, lighting up the garden and car park area as well. You would have thought someone would have heard something when a young tenant screams whilst being strangled and her body carried around the block.

If as you say it might have been a lot different on a midsummer evening, but it was an icy cold December night, and everyone was snug inside with curtains drawn, then what is the point of the jury being read a statement from hardyman saying that he heard or saw nothing that night

Jo may have felt safe moving there, knowing neighbourhood watch was active in the area, pity she ever went near the place.

 

[Cherwell]

If as you say it might have been a lot different on a midsummer evening, but it was an icy cold December night, and everyone was snug inside with curtains drawn, then what is the point of the jury being read a statement from hardyman saying that he heard or saw nothing that night

No use asking me, it's none of my doing! :smile:

I wonder why they asked Mr Hardyman and not any of the other occupiers. There were two floors between his flat and the flat in question. Besides CJ, there would be the occupants of the flat next to Mr H, of the flat next to CJ, and of the hall floor flat immediately above Flats 1 & 2. Perhaps all of them were away or out that night, but it does seem odd to ask the elderly deaf chap with a cold who was furthest away. :waitasec:

 

[Sammyme]

I think that might be the case if Tabak was English, but let's not forget he is Dutch. I've spent quite a bit of time in the Netherlands and have always found the Dutch people to be very outgoing and friendly as a rule. It's quite common for strangers to greet you in passing, "good morning, lovely day isn't it" style of thing. So I would have thought he would already be used to this easygoing manner, having grown up with it.

I've travelled in the country, been there several times on holiday, for annual events and business and met many Dutch people. Very friendly and agreeable too. Speak English wonderfully well. However, when I said that VT might have felt different in some way after his travels and perhaps more easy about approaching people, I wasn't thinking of him being either English or Dutch.

I was thinking of him as an individual who it appears from bits and pieces that I've read found it difficult to meet people, make friends, meet girlfriends etc. either in his home country or in England. For whatever reason, he does not seem to have been socially easy and I suspect that he has always been a bit odd or isolated socially, apart from in the bosom of his own family. I may be wrong but I expect we will hear a great deal more about this aspect of his life and personality before long.

 

[Sammyme]

Yes it is a large detached house turned into flats. Security lights will go on and off when there is movement, lighting up the garden and car park area as well. You would have thought someone would have heard something when a young tenant screams whilst being strangled and her body carried around the block.

If as you say it might have been a lot different on a midsummer evening, but it was an icy cold December night, and everyone was snug inside with curtains drawn, then what is the point of the jury being read a statement from hardyman saying that he heard or saw nothing that night

Jo may have felt safe moving there, knowing neighbourhood watch was active in the area, pity she ever went near the place.

Yes, it's a house, as you say. Aren't there a few more flats upstairs? In some ways it is surprising that no one from the house heard or saw. I know where I live there are always people coming or going in cars or on foot or bicycle. You couldn't as much as put your nose out the door, day or night, early or late, without bumping into someone or seeing someone pass by or being seen by someone.

 

[Clio]

No use asking me, it's none of my doing! :smile:

I wonder why they asked Mr Hardyman and not any of the other occupiers. There were two floors between his flat and the flat in question. Besides CJ, there would be the occupants of the flat next to Mr H, of the flat next to CJ, and of the hall floor flat immediately above Flats 1 & 2. Perhaps all of them were away or out that night, but it does seem odd to ask the elderly deaf chap with a cold who was furthest away. :waitasec:

The jury seem to have heard that Mr Hardyman lived on the top floor of no 44. Not sure that the jury would necssarily have as good a picture of the house layout as those of us who have followed the case so closely. They may not have been told he was deaf.

They seem to have been told he had a cold and stayed in all weekend. Also they heard

"I was unaware of any activity outside my flat. I went to bed at 11pm"

http://www.google.com/hostednews/uk...l3VI1N5fRdEpZFzlg?docId=N0249681319463993531A

So they know he was awake when JY died. They know he lived in the same block and they know he was in at the time JY died (whatever timeline you believe).

Maybe the defence summation will suggest that this testimony indicates that the screams (that VT admits JY made) were not made outside her flat but more likely inside with the door shut, were not that loud and were not prolonged.

Who knows?

 

[Tricksy]

The jury seem to have heard that Mr Hardyman lived on the top floor of no 44. Not sure that the jury would necssarily have as good a picture of the house layout as those of us who have followed the case so closely. They may not have been told he was deaf.

They seem to have been told he had a cold and stayed in all weekend. Also they heard

"I was unaware of any activity outside my flat. I went to bed at 11pm"

http://www.google.com/hostednews/uk...l3VI1N5fRdEpZFzlg?docId=N0249681319463993531A

So they know he was awake when JY died. They know he lived in the same block and they know he was in at the time JY died (whatever timeline you believe).

Maybe the defence summation will suggest that this testimony indicates that the screams (that VT admits JY made) were not made outside her flat but more likely inside with the door shut, were not that loud and were not prolonged.

Who knows?

I would hope that they have been given some sort of diagram of the house. I think that there might have been a floor plan admitted in to evidence at the start of the case, I know that some newspapers were showing layouts of the address, but I am not sure if they were admitted in to evidence or just what the newspapers had mocked up themselves.

The Jury has seen the building, that I can remember! I know that they went in Joanna Yeates and VT's flats (though the press were not allowed to show his flat) I would imagine that the buildings layout was also explained to to the jury at that time, well at least I hope they did! :waitasec:

 

[whiterum]

Since I saw that small court sketch of Jo's body today, I've been feeling so terrible, I wish I hadn't come across it. I feel so very sorry for Jo's mum, dad and brother. That image of their lovely daughter will be etched in their memory forever.

When you think their beloved daughter was safely home, TV on, with the oven heating for her hot meal, when this thing interrupts her and shortly after she is bruised and strangled. I hope the Jury can sift through the lies, the contrived timeline etc: and see a true account emerge.

I have to say after seeing cctv footage of this lovely happy young girl on her way home that night, then looking at that sketch seeing what he is responsible for, I really hate this man and I hope he goes down for murder and for a very long time!

 

[whiterum]

The jury seem to have heard that Mr Hardyman lived on the top floor of no 44. Not sure that the jury would necssarily have as good a picture of the house layout as those of us who have followed the case so closely. They may not have been told he was deaf.

They seem to have been told he had a cold and stayed in all weekend. Also they heard

"I was unaware of any activity outside my flat. I went to bed at 11pm"

http://www.google.com/hostednews/uk...l3VI1N5fRdEpZFzlg?docId=N0249681319463993531A

So they know he was awake when JY died. They know he lived in the same block and they know he was in at the time JY died (whatever timeline you believe).

Maybe the defence summation will suggest that this testimony indicates that the screams (that VT admits JY made) were not made outside her flat but more likely inside with the door shut, were not that loud and were not prolonged.

Who knows?

I remember at the time he said he was bed-bound with a cold the night Jo disappeared. I'm sure the pros will have some of the old statements he made initially

 

[bos]

No use asking me, it's none of my doing! :smile:

I wonder why they asked Mr Hardyman and not any of the other occupiers. There were two floors between his flat and the flat in question. Besides CJ, there would be the occupants of the flat next to Mr H, of the flat next to CJ, and of the hall floor flat immediately above Flats 1 & 2. Perhaps all of them were away or out that night, but it does seem odd to ask the elderly deaf chap with a cold who was furthest away. :waitasec:

My recollection may be off, but wasn't it the case that not all the flats were inhabited at the time of Joanna Yeates' disappearance; either not rented out or the occupants were away? Or was it just the case that the press had only identified CJ & Hardyman as the other occupants? Thinking about it, don't think we knew of Tabak's existence until his arrest apart from one brief Daily Express article.

 

[Cherwell]

My recollection may be off, but wasn't it the case that not all the flats were inhabited at the time of Joanna Yeates' disappearance; either not rented out or the occupants were away? Or was it just the case that the press had only identified CJ & Hardyman as the other occupants? Thinking about it, don't think we knew of Tabak's existence until his arrest apart from one brief Daily Express article.

All 7 flats were inhabited, but only CJ and Hardyman were named in the media. I don't think there was any reliable information on whether the other occupants were at home.

 

[whiterum]

No use asking me, it's none of my doing! :smile:

:therethere: I know it isn't LOL

 

[KMP09]

Okay lets gets some prospective on the latest witness statement, the Handyman that lived right on top of the building wasn't directly above Jo's flat was he?, which was previously CJ's room but then he moved across above VT's flat is what i've read.

Now after sometime myself living in flats i've been able to hear people moving directly above me while they have been walking or moving furniture across the floor. I think the defence are trying there best to get any witness to say they had NOT heared anyone scream that night, but of course if the person wasn't directly living above Jo's property then they are not really going to hear much are they?

 

[Cherwell]

There is a single flat directly above the two ground floor flats, the names of the occupant(s) have never been publicly divulged. This hall floor flat takes up the entire floor.

Above this are CJ's flat, to the left as one views the front of the house, and the flat on the right hand side, again the occupant(s) were never named in the press.

Mr Hardyman (not a handyman afaik, although I understand he tends the gardens!) lives in one of the top floor flats. The other top floor flat is occupied by another former schoolmaster from Clifton College. He too has largely managed to keep his name out of the media.

 

[Sammyme]

Since I saw that small court sketch of Jo's body today, I've been feeling so terrible, I wish I hadn't come across it. I feel so very sorry for Jo's mum, dad and brother. That image of their lovely daughter will be etched in their memory forever.

When you think their beloved daughter was safely home, TV on, with the oven heating for her hot meal, when this thing interrupts her and shortly after she is bruised and strangled. I hope the Jury can sift through the lies, the contrived timeline etc: and see a true account emerge.

I have to say after seeing cctv footage of this lovely happy young girl on her way home that night, then looking at that sketch seeing what he is responsible for, I really hate this man and I hope he goes down for murder and for a very long time!

I'm glad I haven't seen it. Even so, I am angry. It's so unfair, so monstrously unfair that she should be attacked and killed in her own home on an ordinary day for no reason by someone that she couldn't have suspected or guessed to be a mortal danger to her. So unfair that the weather prevented her going to stay the night with her best friend. I long for her family and Greg to hear and see the word "Guilty" being pronounced in that court. It's small comfort I know but they will be there to face him and hear it for Joanna, whatever the verdict.