I believe the contrary
That the killer went there to kill her.
No murder weapons found suggests that the killer took the murder weapon with him prior to entering the building. That shows intent.
UK UK- Joy Hewer, 50, Teacher/church volunteer, sexually assaulted & fatally stabbed in chest, apartment set on fire, Walthamstow, 17 Oct.1995 *REWARD*
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That the killer went there to kill her.
No murder weapons found suggests that the killer took the murder weapon with him prior to entering the building. That shows intent.
Fair enough, it's all about opinions. Do you not think it's possible that he used one of Joy's knives, killed her, cleaned it and took it with him?
What's your theory on why the killer wanted to kill Joy? She seemed to be a very well liked women. Do you think she has stumbled onto something with regards to the London Mission Group and has threatened to expose it?
I believe she was brutally murdered for a very specific reason, and that the killer went there to kill her with premeditated intent.
Note that Joy was strangled, sexually assaulted, stabbed 6 times in the chest, and her flat was set on fire.
That is what we might label as "overkill."
If the murder was an accident or a mistake, we would expect to find just 1 stab wound, or signs of strangulation perhaps.
But to use multiple methods to dispatch his victim, it's clear that the killer had a more personal motive for doing what he did.
Joy may have placed her faith in the wrong person, and it sadly cost her her life.
I don't really consider this a crime with overkill, or think that using multiple methods necessarily shows a personal motive.
As for pre-meditation who knows? The CCTV man isn't exactly dressed in a jacket that would hide blood stains etc.
Assuming CCTV man WAS the killer then he either went there with the intention of killing her, OR things escalated VERY quickly. He enters the building at 22:31 and the fire is called in at 23:18 (probably started closer to 23:00). If they drank coffee and chatted for say 10 minutes too, then things all took a horrible turn, in a window of approx 20 minutes?
My theory has always been that it was someone known to Joy, from the mission, who I think arrived there under the influence of drink or drugs, with the intention of something sexual happening between them but has used some other excuse to gain access. I think his advances have been rebuffed and then he’a become somewhat forceful and Joy has fought back (neighbours heard banging) at which point he has become extremely violent.
I think the perp likely had addiction issues as well as serious mental health problems and actually didn’t go there with the intention of killing her but has done so in a rage. He probably used items that were already in the flat to kill her but who knows, if he’s suffering with extreme mental health issues such as paranoia, perhaps he carried a weapon with him anyway. All we can do is speculate sadly.
My theory has always been that it was someone known to Joy, from the mission, who I think arrived there under the influence of drink or drugs, with the intention of something sexual happening between them but has used some other excuse to gain access. I think his advances have been rebuffed and then he’a become somewhat forceful and Joy has fought back (neighbours heard banging) at which point he has become extremely violent.
I think the perp likely had addiction issues as well as serious mental health problems and actually didn’t go there with the intention of killing her but has done so in a rage. He probably used items that were already in the flat to kill her but who knows, if he’s suffering with extreme mental health issues such as paranoia, perhaps he carried a weapon with him anyway. All we can do is speculate sadly.
Also, when and where was it mentioned that the telephone call man was a black male? I’ve seen it mentioned on here a couple of times but don’t recall that being mentioned on Crimewatch or in news articles?? If that is indeed the case that does make me lean towards thinking that telephone call man, was the tall black man seen running from St David’s Court.
If you listen to the 999 phone call made at 23.18pm, it is clear that the man talking is a black male.
The tone of the voice has a wonderful bass quality that only stems from a man with Caribbean heritage.
Unless the caller was a professional voiceover artist who could perfectly impersonate a black man both in terms of tone and linguistics, then it's clear that the man who made the call certainly wasn't Caucasian.
And that means that he wasn't the man caught on the CCTV footage at 22.31pm either.
I think it's highly likely yes.
It's important to note that the London Healing Mission at that time wasn't officially recognized by the mainstream church. Arbuthnot had been "defrocked" and yet he was still able to preach at the church despite multiple allegations of sexual assault through his use of "Internal Ministry."
So essentially, Joy attended the London Healing Mission to help with admin and clean etc... but the establishment itself was little more than a "Christian" cultist sect that practiced Spiritualism as it's primary focus.
The timing of Joy's murder occurring just after Arbuthnot's officially leaving the LHM is interesting because when Joy attended on the morning of her murder, Arbuthnot had only just left. I would need to check my notes, but IIRC he had only left a day or 2 earlier, possibly even the same day Joy was murdered.
The timing is very peculiar indeed.
I think it's likely that someone was aware of Arbuthnot's practices and went to Joy's flat under the guise of someone trying to help her for whatever reason. It's likely she knew all about the dodgy dealings of Arbuthnot and perhaps was silenced for it.
I believe the man caught on CCTV is the killer, and the man who made the 999 call and who started the fires himself, was his accomplice.
2 men involved.
The killer who was known to Joy went to her flat at 22.30pm and stayed chatting over coffee in the living room for about 20 minutes. At some point he has gestured to leave, but instead of heading to the door, he kills Joy in the bedroom, initially through strangulation to subdue her, and then by stabbing her repeatedly on the floor.
The sexual assault element is a ruse to cover for the fact the murder was intentional, and not about sex from a some depraved drug addict.
The killer then leaves around 11pm and goes out the rear exit that had no CCTV.
The accomplice is then told to go to Joy's flat and start 2 fires to destroy evidence, but because they cant be responsible for killing the other 55 residents, the accomplice has to immediately run down the stairs and out into the street (where he is nearly hit by a car) he then runs across the road to Fulbourne Rd and calls 999.
The fires aren't started until 23.15pm.
The real killer is probably half way home by the time the fires have been started. His alibi is the delayed timing of the fires.
So everyone is made to believe that the killer leaves the building around 23.15pm, but he had already left at least 15 minutes earlier.
That extra 15 minutes for the killer to return home is perfect for a cover alibi.
The reason why the man who made the 999 call never came forward, is because he was likely told that his DNA would also be in the flat and to keep quiet. Being a black male with matching DNA in the flat, would virtually ensure he is labelled as the killer.
But the real killer; the white male caught on CCTV is the real culprit, who planned to go the flat and kill Joy. He was likely connected to the LHM and the Arbuthnot's in some way. A man who held sway and influence over Joy; enough for her to feel compelled to let him in to her flat that late at night in just her nightdress.
That's my working theory anyway
Very interesting theory, although I'm not convinced an accomplice was involved. Who knows though?
I'm certainly not convinced that the sexual assault was some kind of ruse.
Or that the murder was planned in advance.
I also haven't seen anything to suggest Joy had uncovered something and was about to spill the beans, but again who knows in such a bizarre case?
I'm certainly not convinced that the sexual assault was some kind of ruse.
Or that the murder was planned in advance.
I also haven't seen anything to suggest Joy had uncovered something and was about to spill the beans, but again who knows in such a bizarre case?
I'm of the mind that it is connected to the London Healing Mission. I'm quite prepared to believe the black male who dashed out the building and was almost run over is an accomplice but I just can't get my head around that the same person made the 999 call.
The caller was extremely hesitant and was on the line for 3 minutes. He even had to ask a passerby what street he was on thus drawing attention to himself.
If the black male was the accomplice and made the call, by speaking to the person at the Bus Stop he has created a potential witness against himself. If you had just set fire to a house would you behave like this?
Surely, your natural instinct would be to flee the scene?
Imo, the guy who made the 999 call is unconnected to the case and is just a driver who is not very confident on the phone and doesn't know the area that well.
Wouldn’t the black male (or whoever the accomplice was) also have been captured on CCTV? How would he have gained access to the building with Joy deceased and the killer, presumably, away? Was the accomplice waiting around nearby? Why wouldn’t the killer just go in and kill Joy if that was always his intention?
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Exactly. And this discussion is exactly why the caller doesn't come forward.
It would be interesting to know which of the 4 flats on the 6th floor Joy actually lived in, and why the residents of the other 3 flats on floor 6, never reported a smell of smoke in the communal hallway?
Why was no communal smoke alarm raised?
An integrated fire alarm system?
Also, the man on the call states that he sees "flames, coming from one of the floors..."
That means that he literally sees flames and must have been looking up at the 6th floor when he does so.
As human beings, we hardly ever look up, because as a species we've had no aerial predators.
When you next walk into a room you're not familiar with, the last place you'll instinctively look, is up. You'll subconsciously check the exit points, the windows, the doors, even looking at the floor to see where you're stepping, but looking up at the ceiling is the last place you'll look.
That means that the 999 callers attention must have been drawn to the 6th floor and he needed to have literally seen those flames for him to be able to go and report what he saw as he was driving past.
The fact he states he was also in a vehicle means that unless he stopped at the traffic lights, then he must have been travelling when he looked up to see the flames. At approximately 23.15pm at night, the road would have been relatively quiet, and so his speed would have been around 30mph. That said, most drivers at night tend to go a fraction faster on a quiet road, so he could have been travelling anywhere up to 40mph.
Which direction was he driving?
It's unlikely to have been west, because his subsequent calling from a phone box would have resulted in him walking back past the flats, then turning into Fulbourne Road. This is unlikely because there was a 24 hour petrol garage located on the north side of Forest Rd just west of the flats, meaning that the driver would likely have parked up in the petrol garage and alerted the petrol station attendant and/or used their phone to call 999.
He cant have been driving south along Fulbourne Road, because he said he was "Driving PAST the flats"
That only leaves him either driving north along Wood Street with the flats to his left, or him driving east along Forest Rd.
If he was driving east along Forest Rd, or North along Wood Street, then was he physically and literally able to see the "flames" up on the 6th floor, from his actual vantage point from the driver's seat of his vehicle; ergo, where was Joy's living room and bedroom windows in relation to both Wood Street and Forest Road?
If for example Joy's flat was at the far south west corner of the flats., then it would have been virtually impossible for the 999 caller to have seen the flames from him having driven past in his car in the first place.
One would assume that the police tested the physical logistics of the claim made by the 999 caller to see whether he could have seen any flames.
Although the sceptic in me rather doubts that some investigative teams think outside the box like that.
Of course, if Joys flat faced either Forest Rd or Wood Street, then it begs the other question; why did nobody else call it in?
All 55 other residents failed to call emergency services, event those living on the same floor as Joy. And yet a man driving past manages to randomly look up and sees flames at a 6th floor window.
Something just feels a little off
Why was no communal smoke alarm raised?
An integrated fire alarm system?
Also, the man on the call states that he sees "flames, coming from one of the floors..."
That means that he literally sees flames and must have been looking up at the 6th floor when he does so.
As human beings, we hardly ever look up, because as a species we've had no aerial predators.
When you next walk into a room you're not familiar with, the last place you'll instinctively look, is up. You'll subconsciously check the exit points, the windows, the doors, even looking at the floor to see where you're stepping, but looking up at the ceiling is the last place you'll look.
That means that the 999 callers attention must have been drawn to the 6th floor and he needed to have literally seen those flames for him to be able to go and report what he saw as he was driving past.
The fact he states he was also in a vehicle means that unless he stopped at the traffic lights, then he must have been travelling when he looked up to see the flames. At approximately 23.15pm at night, the road would have been relatively quiet, and so his speed would have been around 30mph. That said, most drivers at night tend to go a fraction faster on a quiet road, so he could have been travelling anywhere up to 40mph.
Which direction was he driving?
It's unlikely to have been west, because his subsequent calling from a phone box would have resulted in him walking back past the flats, then turning into Fulbourne Road. This is unlikely because there was a 24 hour petrol garage located on the north side of Forest Rd just west of the flats, meaning that the driver would likely have parked up in the petrol garage and alerted the petrol station attendant and/or used their phone to call 999.
He cant have been driving south along Fulbourne Road, because he said he was "Driving PAST the flats"
That only leaves him either driving north along Wood Street with the flats to his left, or him driving east along Forest Rd.
If he was driving east along Forest Rd, or North along Wood Street, then was he physically and literally able to see the "flames" up on the 6th floor, from his actual vantage point from the driver's seat of his vehicle; ergo, where was Joy's living room and bedroom windows in relation to both Wood Street and Forest Road?
If for example Joy's flat was at the far south west corner of the flats., then it would have been virtually impossible for the 999 caller to have seen the flames from him having driven past in his car in the first place.
One would assume that the police tested the physical logistics of the claim made by the 999 caller to see whether he could have seen any flames.
Although the sceptic in me rather doubts that some investigative teams think outside the box like that.
Of course, if Joys flat faced either Forest Rd or Wood Street, then it begs the other question; why did nobody else call it in?
All 55 other residents failed to call emergency services, event those living on the same floor as Joy. And yet a man driving past manages to randomly look up and sees flames at a 6th floor window.
Something just feels a little off
That's a very good point that unfortunately I hadn't thought through.
The black male running out the building was almost hit by traffic. This suggests that he exited the building from the exit shown on the screenshot onto Forest Road.
Is this the main entrance to St David's Court or as Rookie D suggests a side entrance and the main entrance runs perpendicular to St David's Court.
I cannot see any CCTV at this entrance(screenshot) which would tend to confirm this.
Perhaps the black male(accomplice?) knew this and entered and exited the building here.
But that begs the question that if the black male is an accomplice then the killer would know also that there was no CCTV at this entrance so there would be no need to be caught on camera at all.
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If you look at what looks like a white A4 piece of paper stuck to the window in this screenshot, you can see the entrance door directly behind it on the adjacent wall/frame. The man seen entering at 22.31am would have been caught on the CCTV camera which is located further along the wall, but higher up, facing down at an angle.
What's interesting about this, is that just before he got to the main entrance door, his body would have been directly facing the CCTV camera just before he then turns to access the door to his right.
So where is the image of the front of his body?
It had to have been observed just a second or 2 before the 22.31pm image of his side/back was captured.
Unless there's an access to the rear of the building that runs around the building without having to use Wood Street, then the man on CCTV could have possibly come from the side street located at the back of the building and then walked around the eastern side parameter of the building and then walked towards the entrance door with his back to the CCTV camera the entire time; ergo, he never used those steps facing Forest Road at all.
There is however another access door located at the rear of the building, which at the time didn't have an operational CCTV camera.
It may be a case that the man seen on CCTV at 22.31pm wasn't able to buzz in to gain access to the building, and therefore had no choice but to try the main front entrance door.
If that's the case then the man would have needed to have known that there was a way to circumvent the building without using Wood Street.
But if he did use those steps and accessed the building by walking to the top of the steps and using the entrance door on the adjacent wall (which can be seen behind that A4 piece of paper stuck to the window) then he must have directly faced the CCTV as he walked between the gap between the top of the stairs and the entrance door.
As he's standing facing the entrance door, the CCTV camera is positioned up and to his left, meaning it's facing the entrance door and should have captured anyone coming up the stairs BEFORE they reach the door.
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It's a strange one, I'll give you that. When I key in St David'sCourt, Walthamstow in Google it gives the following address.
St David Court
60 Parkstone Road
London
E17 3HS
I would suggest that this indicates that Parkstone Road is the main entrance and that the CCTV, which captured the white male at 22.31,is at this side and not the Forest Road side.
If you look at the screenshots of the door itself, you'll see a large metal panel below the No Smoking sign with all the house numbers on them which tends to suggest it is the main entrance. There is no similar panel on the Forest Rd side which means in my opinion it is an exit.
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I have found the 2015 Crimewatch update(was showing up as video unavailable further up the thread) and the CCTV camera was situated at the Forest Road side looking down on the entrance.
As Rookie D had stated you would go up the steps at the exit on Forest Road and then go to your left and round to reach the entrance.
It still doesn't explain how the killer was able to evade CCTV on the way out though.
I've uploaded a screenshot of the 2 presenters at the door along with the exit door onto Forest Road.
The segment on Joy starts at 26.28 and the presenters bit at 32.35
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How old would CCTV guy be now? If he WAS the killer the police may have missed their chance at catching him, sadly. Assuming he is still alive he’d be what, around 70? And if he’s dead, the DNA they have won’t lead anywhere. I think this case WAS solvable but fear the passage of time has made it much much harder, if not impossible. I really hope I’m proven wrong one day, this case has bothered me since I first saw it on Crimewatch in the 90’s.
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