Found Deceased UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen getting into taxi outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #9 *ARREST*

[Quintet]

Even drunk, if it develops and escalates, to him forcing her and her fighting him off, then yes I would expect it to be a very difficult thing for him to 'kill' her like that while next to her in the front seat. If she was already in the process of fighting him off and he escalated that physical aggression, I would also expect her to have marked him in some way - I can't envision how anyone can just reach over, strength or not, and strangle someone while next to them.

I think it would be much more likely for him to have killed her without being marked himself while out in the open, particularly if she has ran and stumbled, or he has pushed her over, then he can use his overwhelming strength - but I just don't see that happening in the car without her at least scratching him.

* Incidentally - On the screaming noises, I am going through some of the video to see if it was picked up, but I was in the area of the park/pond at midnight the other night and there was a screaming like someone being murdered coming from the direction of the turbine! The closest I'd match that noise to would be a rabbit being torn apart.

But if that's a known noise from round there, wouldn't people in earshot hear the difference? One of the sound witnesses said it sounded like a human in distress - reading between the lines it sounded like that witness was ruling out foxes mating/tearing apart rabbits.

 

[Quintet]

Unfortunately we don’t always fight, we don’t always scream, sometimes we just freeze.

If the screams had been so bad, that you thought someone was being attacked, then surely you would report it at the time!?

 

[Newthoughts]

He lives in the heart of what is one of the densest student areas, away from the immediate vicinity of the university. I don't know about those particular streets, but the whole Newland area has only seen an increase of houses in the area going for student specific HMOs, as locals are complaining that almost the entire stock of rented houses along Newland are going to HMOs, also pushing up prices faster than the local trend.

I was surprised at just how many student HMOs there were along Beresford/Wellesley. But it would reflect the general trend as the University expands more and more taking up housing closer to it first. In the other direction from Haworth, towards the University campus itself, the bottom halfs of Cranbrook and Auckland Avenues are probably about 90% University owned HMOs.

I have speculated that Piper/Newland was his main area of 'operation', and that perhaps he had noticed large numbers of students heading to Beresford area. (Perhaps he already had the park in mind?) And that potentially he had noticed Libby, or one of her housemates, and that is what brought his offending away from his own streets, to Wellesley, where he had identified a potential target.

* Had he used Haworth Street as a parking spot before to watch these students he had followed from Piper? (more likely to be walking than from Welly)

The more I read the more I suspect planning.

You have a high student population. Lots of youngsters away from home for first time. Not very savvy or streetwise and not good at handling drink.

Presumably all the local clubs have well publicised student nights so lots of people coming home at certain times.

If CCTV is him he's in an odd location late at night given where he lives.

Someone says she was near a bus stop that sometimes ran late buses from that club. That bus didn't run late on that night but if it did at weekends he might have thought it would on student nights. So I suspect did she.

So is it possible he's been hanging out near student nights out for a while looking and was therefore more than prepared for this.

Has anything else happened near clubs?

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Is it possible Libby got back in (or was put back in) the car alive, but maybe unconscious? That would mean any forensics on the car would still seem legit, assuming he has already admitted she was his passenger.

He could have taken her anywhere.

 

[Strontium69]

Someone asked earlier about how long a cadaver dog can detect the scent of a body after it's been moved from somewhere?

In the case of drugs dogs they can detect the scent of their target drug SIX MONTHS after it has been removed from the scene. According to the ex-copper the advice for drugs storing inhouse is to take a sample of the drug and smear it EVERYWHERE so they give too many false positives and the handler gives up!

They can also apparently smell drugs that have been wrapped in plastic and placed inside a petrol tank full of petrol.

 

[Officer Dibble]

Police have been described in the press on a few occasions as 'searching drains'.

Hull and the surrounding countryside is criss-crossed with theses 'drains'. They are more like rivers, but they are basically man-made drainage channels that drain the entire half of this county, the area know as the Plains of Holderness, and drain the fields. They all end up at a natural river, and eventually the sea.

One of these drains runs behind where Libby's house is on Wellesley Avenue.

Here Police are on the EAST bank of the BEVERLEY AND BARMSTON DRAIN looking across to the rear of Libby's House.

Here, early on Police are searching the DRAINS near Libby's house...

Also, confusingly, here are Police searching the DRAINS near Libby's house...

Also, in the last few days, Police have been searching DRAINS in and around the Croda fence in the wooded part of the park

 

[Newthoughts]

Yes I agree of course I do.

Unless it started off as 'can I borrow your car.

But then the average person would have informed the police straightaway.

I know it's far fetched even as I'm thinking it I know it's a stretch.

I think most normal people would report something like that. If not initially then certainly after seeing the poor parents appeal. No normal human being would have sat through that and not responded even if it was annonymously.

But there is the more chilling possibility that he had an a accomplice of a similar mindset. That joined in? Does anyone know if the existing CCTV footage shows him calling anyone

 

[Officer Dibble]

If she's ended up being swept out to sea, her family will never though and that is a horrible thought

 

[Officer Dibble]

Is it possible Libby got back in (or was put back in) the car alive, but maybe unconscious? That would mean any forensics on the car would still seem legit, assuming he has already admitted she was his passenger.

He could have taken her anywhere.

Definitely a possibility

 

[Armchair_Defective]

Even if he wrapped her body in carpet/bin bags and put her wrapped up in that way the scent of a decomposing body would still be picked up by the cadaver dogs when his car was checked out, there is no way her dead body was ever in any part of his car. If it had been then he would be nailed on to be charged with murder by now

The only possibilities are that he dumped her in the area he killed her and by good fortune for him she hasn’t been found or that a different vehicle to his was used to transport her body out of the city or wherever

But we don't know the time frame. A body takes time to develop the decomposition odour. I think it's generally about 1.5 hours? Then it would have been cold so could have slowed the time by hours more that he could get away with having no scent picked up.
Then we have the fact dog alerts are not classed as evidence alone, so even if a dog alerted in his car that might not be classed enough evidence without the forensics to back it up.

I do agree that he probably had some good fortune in where he hid the body.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Someone asked earlier about how long a cadaver dog can detect the scent of a body after it's been moved from somewhere?

A cadaver dog can pick up the scent of death from a corpse after just two minutes exposure.

Tests were done where they put a dead body on cushions for 2 minutes and the dogs identified those cushions with 94% accuracy. Other cushions were left with the body for 10 minutes, and the success rate rose to 98%.

So basically, if a dead body has been left anywhere for more than a couple of minutes, the dogs will know.

 

[Newthoughts]

A cadaver dog can pick up the scent of death from a corpse after just two minutes exposure.

Tests were done where they put a dead body on cushions for 2 minutes and the dogs identified those cushions with 94% accuracy. Other cushions were left with the body for 10 minutes, and the success rate rose to 98%.

So basically, if a dead body has been left anywhere for more than a couple of minutes, the dogs will know.

He works as a butcher, would that complicate the smell?

 

[Armchair_Defective]

A cadaver dog can pick up the scent of death from a corpse after just two minutes exposure.

Tests were done where they put a dead body on cushions for 2 minutes and the dogs identified those cushions with 94% accuracy. Other cushions were left with the body for 10 minutes, and the success rate rose to 98%.

So basically, if a dead body has been left anywhere for more than a couple of minutes, the dogs will know.

I thought there wasn't a consensus on this and there are many variables - such as body size, temperature and how the dogs are trained. So the studies show that some dogs can sometimes pick up a scent very quickly but there's no way you can confirm that with every lot of dogs.

 

[Sera]

This is probably a stretch - but I know other people have referred to other cases where the suspect was released and then kept under surveillance and led LE to the body. Obviously, that can't happen with PR because he's been remanded in custody - but the police have said that they're doing a lot of "behind the scenes" work now. Is it possible that LE do think that someone else was involved and they know who might be involved, but they've not arrested them (or maybe they did and then let them go, and just not told the media or public) and are keeping them under surveillance, watching to see if they keep going back to a certain area where LS could be?

Just a personal theory.

 

[Strontium69]

The more I read the more I suspect planning.

You have a high student population. Lots of youngsters away from home for first time. Not very savvy or streetwise and not good at handling drink.

Presumably all the local clubs have well publicised student nights so lots of people coming home at certain times.

If CCTV is him he's in an odd location late at night given where he lives.

Someone says she was near a bus stop that sometimes ran late buses from that club. That bus didn't run late on that night but if it did at weekends he might have thought it would on student nights. So I suspect did she.

So is it possible he's been hanging out near student nights out for a while looking and was therefore more than prepared for this.

Has anything else happened near clubs?

Yes I agree, that something brought him from his own streets to Wellesley/Beresford.

Incidentally, from what I know of the student demographics of the area; There are large halls about 3 miles further away in Cottingham, where I believe most first years would stay. Students would then venture out into an HMO in the 2nd and 3rd years. And if anything like we were at uni, stay on after uni for a couple of years in the same area also in HMOs in the same student areas.

Piper and Welly would be the main student 'mass' nights; Piper being more of a 'meat market' rep than Welly, Welly also having a name for under 18s nights (Weds?).

As you travel north up Newland Avenue you turn right to go to Haworth corner, or left to go to the campus. Heading left, the housing around there (Cranbrook/Auckland area) is dominated by foreign students, particularly Chinese, and postgrads; far more likely to keep themselves to themselves. HOWEVER, when I was in the streets around Wellesley and Beresford last week on Thursday night at 10pm, I was surprised how many large groups of really young students were heading out from that small group of streets. I had pretty much known those streets as almost 100% working families; but Thurs 10pm it had the appearance of an apartment complex near the Magaluf strip, almost looked like the entire place was emptying out at once! There were multiple groups of 8s, 10s, 12s, looking very young 19-21; so for such a small number of houses around those streets, there is a very high number of students in that area/estate. They all seemed very familiar and gregarious with each other, seems like a tight-knit student community in there?

 

[yoyo1]

A cadaver dog can pick up the scent of death from a corpse after just two minutes exposure.

Tests were done where they put a dead body on cushions for 2 minutes and the dogs identified those cushions with 94% accuracy. Other cushions were left with the body for 10 minutes, and the success rate rose to 98%.

So basically, if a dead body has been left anywhere for more than a couple of minutes, the dogs will know.

But what role in things does how long the body has been dead for play.
Its one thing to say a cadaver dog can detect if an old rotting corpse has been place somewhere for 2 minutes but is the same true if a freshly dead body is placed somewhere for 2 minutes or half an hour.

 

[Joolz1975]

Is it possible Libby got back in (or was put back in) the car alive, but maybe unconscious? That would mean any forensics on the car would still seem legit, assuming he has already admitted she was his passenger.

He could have taken her anywhere.

He could have tied her up...knocked her out.. any manner of things really.

 

[Joolz1975]

But what role in things does how long the body has been dead for play.
Its one thing to say a cadaver dog can detect if an old rotting corpse has been place somewhere for 2 minutes but is the same true if a freshly dead body is placed somewhere for 2 minutes or half an hour.

Good point actually.

 

[Pinkizzy]

I think it’s rather possible that PR would normally cruise down the Avenue by the Piper (Kindergarten), however, I believe The Piper closed for refurbishment early January for a few weeks, so likely the cruising then took place down Beverley Road. I believe the Wellesley offence took place whilst the Piper was still closed, which has maybe led him to other areas. I’m not convinced he’s unrehearsed in his actions.

He returns to burgle a house on Ventnor Av at the end of Jan.

 

[Strontium69]

This is probably a stretch - but I know other people have referred to other cases where the suspect was released and then kept under surveillance and led LE to the body. Obviously, that can't happen with PR because he's been remanded in custody - but the police have said that they're doing a lot of "behind the scenes" work now. Is it possible that LE do think that someone else was involved and they know who might be involved, but they've not arrested them (or maybe they did and then let them go, and just not told the media or public) and are keeping them under surveillance, watching to see if they keep going back to a certain area where LS could be?

Just a personal theory.

Yes I have a lot of sympathy with this, have thought this for a long time. Wonder what the car told them?

It almost seems like they have 2 and 2 but can't quite put them together to make 4, something very crucial missing.

For me that is another person - for me that is the only way to explain Libby's disappearance WITHOUT TRACE when the Police have the last person known to have seen her alive? And they can't get a confession, nothing from the car, his phone, or anything from the house or his person that gives any clue as to her whereabouts?

That does not sound like an opportunist just grabbing a sudden opportunity! I know he would have planned this to some extent, if he was engaged in stalking activity, but for a lone operator, of such a young age, potentially his first physical assault type of crime; and he's evaded all the forensics, left no trace of him or Libby in the park, out-foxed the cadaver dog, and all on a night when you would look out and expect yourself to be leaving footprints and car tracks in the snow?

I don't think he 'planned' for killing or disposing of Libby. I think a mixture of his escalation, bravado, and possibly drugs, meant he had only planned up to and including getting physical with Libby or another girl that night; in his psychological disposition he has become so fixated, tunnel visioned, in the hour or so leading up to contact with Libby, that once at and beyond that stage, he has no plan.

Which is where I am going round in circles... which is why I am convinced there had to be a second person involved.

I said this earlier up the thread - but I see this as almost 2 separate crimes;
1) PR's assault on LS, events surrounding which are categorised by and within his behaviour.
2) The disappearance of Libby; this is why so many people still stick to the theory that PR actually had nothing to do with her disappearance. The disappearance half of the incident is of a different character to the first half of the incident; namely PR and his contact/interaction with LS.

So EITHER - his role is as he has said; maybe he intended to stalk her and try it on with her, but never to actually force himself on her? Maybe he left it at that, she got out, he drove off... AND now she is 'abducted' by someone who may or may not exist with ZERO clues and ZERO trace

Or - he 'accidentally' killed her; and he either borrowed someone's car and drove her away from the city, or he had help...

There is a huge piece missing here, obviously I know given she herself is mysteriously missing. But PRs involvement does not make full sense from beginning to end IF YOU FOLLOW THE SCENARIO THROUGH.