Found Deceased UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #11 *ARREST*

[jamjim]

I get confused here. Can I clarify that there are benches in the park (that LE have examined forensically) as well as the bench near where Libby was last seen.

I also have it in my mind that there was some forensic activity near the bench where she was last seen. I have it in my head that LE officers in forensic suits were measuring and photographing something near that bench. I can't find where I saw it but I'm sure it was that bench not the one in the park.

This was 9th February. They just appeared there but were gone around an hour and a half later.

 

[Mollie123]

School on beresford has no external cctv i had a look, but house at park entrance might have idk

Yes I thought I noticed something on the side which points directly at the car park but didn't want to look too long. When I drove down oak road other entrance off clough road, someone was parked up just sat staring down the lane toward the park so I turned round and noticed the Croda cctv pointing at me. Didn't hang around. Was half expecting a tap on my shoulder when I parked up to visit neighbouring shop, makes you feel awkward, so thank you so much to those who have taken the time to gather photos etc for us all.

 

[Myjamfactory]

I’ve been following this since #1 and very impressed with the mostly articulate interpretations given the limited information. Strontium’s videos are excellent .

Much of what I think has already been said but first post anyway ...This case has really got to me as I have 2 children at this uni who have loose connections with LS’s friends . They are both at the same gym as PR and one if my children arrived at welly at about 11.20 that same night. I visit hull regularly with Red Cross parcels for the children and last week found myself close to PR’s place of work . Despite ridicule , i started to look for CCTV and possible secluded lay-bys close to ditches or woodland from that point towards Hull. There are lots of the latter .

I too have studied spidercam and concur that it seems very reasonable to assume it is LS. confirmed also by PR and I think his sister and mother.

The timing of the oak road cctv suggests that PR’s whereabouts were possibly not fully known until 3am . That surprised me . That gap is just right for him to travel the work route and back although I’m not convinced he did that entire journey with LS and risk being stopped or caught on cctv .

My children were at the courtyard last year and it is routine to have Prees before going on elsewhere - typically asylum on Wednesdays or welly on Thursdays . It’s not typical to go via another pub so the chance of further CCTV would reduce from such sources . Lots of cctv around the courtyard but not that helpful for this purpose .

Many support the river theory but others have said it is too shallow and meandering for anyone to have traveled far. The tide was half in and rising which might suggest a push upriver rather than towards the Humber . IMO I think she would have struggled to reach the river accidentally and to be taken there by anyone risked attention. I won’t mention the foxes.

The obvious crux is that LE must prove , beyond reasonable doubt that PR did not leave LS unharmed . He has pleaded not guilty to the first set of charges and , if he maintains this plea, and IF found guilty st trial , he will lose some if his sentence discount. Discounts are granted for TIMELY guilty pleas . No pleas yet for the more recent charges but Monday may change that . The order of cases heard can change depending on whether security and/or his solicitor are busy in another court. Hope someone from WS can attend .

I cannot comprehend how the family can begin to make sense of this until LS is found . My heart goes out also to all those people and friends who may be feeling that they should have done more . Some have been subjected to upsetting criticism . They are deeply effected by LS’s disappearance that some have felt compelled to return home to parents . No one could have predicted the sequence of events that created this perfect storm .

At hull tomorrow again and will continue to stay alert for new possibilities .

In the meantime the majority of students remain on high alert .

 

[DanCJ]

I’ve been following this since #1 and very impressed with the mostly articulate interpretations given the limited information. Strontium’s videos are excellent .

Much of what I think has already been said but first post anyway ...This case has really got to me as I have 2 children at this uni who have loose connections with LS’s friends . They are both at the same gym as PR and one if my children arrived at welly at about 11.20 that same night. I visit hull regularly with Red Cross parcels for the children and last week found myself close to PR’s place of work . Despite ridicule , i started to look for CCTV and possible secluded lay-bys close to ditches or woodland from that point towards Hull. There are lots of the latter .

.

You were ridiculed for trying to help find a missing woman? Wow what's wrong with some people. The public are a powerful force who have been instrumental in helping the police over the years with their discoveries. So I commend your efforts, you will only get praise from me.

 

[Plod]

As I have no idea what evidence the police have (the shared evidence is less than minimal), the answer is that I genuinely have no idea. I think we should all be reasonably skeptical. LE may (I hope) be a couple of ticks away from a watertight case. They may still be some way off.

There have been a lot of presumptions made about a lot of things but as it stands, he has not been charged and LS remains missing. I have female friends at the Uni, I have frequented the Welly, played football on Oak Road park, I have lived 10 minutes walk from various of the locations with intelligent girls who occasionally like a drink. It is a horrible situation and the only comfort is that LE have a lot more than they are sharing.

I hope they have the right person for those reasons (and on the balance of probabilities I assume there is some incriminating evidence as yet unshared). But until such a time as it comes to court, I must keep an open mind and however wildly and impossibly, keep hoping that there is a happy ending.

This is a criminal trial -the burden of proof is beyond reasonable doubt that he did it. Not the balance of probabilities which is easier to prove and in civil matters. So the police must be so sure they have evidence to convict him before a jury.

 

[Offaly]

Have just driven around the sites again. I've walked in the park, don't think me mad, I was hoping to 'feel' something, anything.
I cannot fathom.

I know, every time I drive past the bench on Beverly road, I stare at it in hope as if it's going to magically produce some evidence or something. So so sad.

 

[DanCJ]

I hope the Police have enough information to rule out that he left the City of Hull. From what we have gathered so far the current searches seem to support this theory. But if that was the case I would have really thought Libby would have been discovered by now.

The current presentable charges of 'Waving Willie', 'Peeping Tom and 'Burglar Bob' soon diminish any view of PR being a nice individual. In regards, to whether I think he holds responsibility of Libby's disappearance the only question I'd love answered would be this... Did he come to the Police first or did they come to him? That would tell it all for me.

 

[Z03]

someone off here did a gif at normal speed i seem to recall

I actually timed myself getting in my car, turning on ignition and reversing, I did it at a chill pace and it took me 10 seconds.. it took him 17 seconds. It does seem like he wasn't in a mad rush. Perhaps he was chatting or trying to gain her trust by being calm and slow.
My mistake though as he certainly didn't speed off at a fast pace. Libby had about 20 seconds to get out of the car before it was in the road.

 

[kate2931]

@Myjamfactory great, informative first post - welcome !

Interesting to know about PR attending the same gym, is it a gym frequented by lots of students ? Would this just be due to its location ?

I also lean more towards the belief that PR drove out towards his work, armed with the knowledge of woodland and ditches that you mentioned. Not necessarily going all the way and managing to avoid cctv (perhaps not purposefully) that was either broken, only fixed to certain aspects and not able to make out Libby on the way. If I remember rightly, a poster earlier on in this thread found information on the poor state of Hull’s cctv network, think it was due to a lack of funding? (Isn’t everything !)

Very sad to hear the effect on Libby’s friends, no one on that night envisaged what would happen and I don’t doubt they only had libby’s best interest at heart by putting her in a cab to go home and sleep it off.

I wonder if the gym was heavily used by students and was therefore a deliberate choice of gym for PR. Coupled with living close to student accommodation and the ferocity of his perverted stalking/flashing etc, it seemed like a perfect hunting ground for him. Student night and he’s out on the prowl hoping to find someone either alone or vulnerable or both and unfortunately it appears to have been Libby who met his pre requisite that night. All of this added up, I do now believe the majority of PRs actions were pre meditated.

All my own opinion of course.

Thank you for your insight x

 

[NowhereMan]

This is a criminal trial -the burden of proof is beyond reasonable doubt that he did it. Not the balance of probabilities which is easier to prove and in civil matters. So the police must be so sure they have evidence to convict him before a jury.

Yup. I was suggesting that it is highly likely that the police have a lot more evidence than they have shared. Probably some CCTV and some physical evidence of her in his car. However (we can infer from the lack of charge) this will all be circumstantial without any unequivocal evidence of wrong-doing. To get it beyond reasonable doubt will be next-to-impossible without the body (in this case) and even then it is not certain. As I said earlier, the fact that so much of the case has played out in public before charges will also be an issue (even without a trial out of Hull).

More questions than answers at the moment, my friend.

 

[Vermont24]

@Myjamfactory great, informative first post - welcome !

Interesting to know about PR attending the same gym, is it a gym frequented by lots of students ? Would this just be due to its location ?

I also lean more towards the belief that PR drove out towards his work, armed with the knowledge of woodland and ditches that you mentioned. Not necessarily going all the way and managing to avoid cctv (perhaps not purposefully) that was either broken, only fixed to certain aspects and not able to make out Libby on the way. If I remember rightly, a poster earlier on in this thread found information on the poor state of Hull’s cctv network, think it was due to a lack of funding? (Isn’t everything !)

Very sad to hear the effect on Libby’s friends, no one on that night envisaged what would happen and I don’t doubt they only had libby’s best interest at heart by putting her in a cab to go home and sleep it off.

I wonder if the gym was heavily used by students and was therefore a deliberate choice of gym for PR. Coupled with living close to student accommodation and the ferocity of his perverted stalking/flashing etc, it seemed like a perfect hunting ground for him. Student night and he’s out on the prowl hoping to find someone either alone or vulnerable or both and unfortunately it appears to have been Libby who met his pre requisite that night. All of this added up, I do now believe the majority of PRs actions were pre meditated.

All my own opinion of course.

Thank you for your insight x

PR's gym is walking distance from the University and definitely popular with students.

 

[kate2931]

@Vermont24 thank you

 

[Vermont24]

@Vermont24 thank you

I'd be interested to know how many of the victims of the crimes he's been charged with are members of the same gym.

 

[JosieJo]

I hope the Police have enough information to rule out that he left the City of Hull. From what we have gathered so far the current searches seem to support this theory. But if that was the case I would have really thought Libby would have been discovered by now.

The current presentable charges of 'Waving Willie', 'Peeping Tom and 'Burglar Bob' soon diminish any view of PR being a nice individual. In regards, to whether I think he holds responsibility of Libby's disappearance the only question I'd love answered would be this... Did he come to the Police first or did they come to him? That would tell it all for me.

Yes I'd very much like to know that ..I think he may have approached them

 

[Ella48]

Hi 1st post for me.

I’ve been thinking about the possibility that his wife might have had something to do with his arrest. She might have asked him about scratches/bruises he could have had on him, she might have seen a postcode in satnav/phone herself, or thought the time he returned home to be odd. Its possible he gave the explanation with specific details to her (the postcode and pushing away girls advances). She possibly told him to contact the police, and assumed that he would.

When the childlike efit resurfaced if she saw it she must have thought it looked a bit like her husband? The offence in question was on Boxing Day, and I’m sure we all would all be able to recall whether our partners were in or out of the house on Boxing Day evening. One too many coincidences for her perhaps?

 

[RosalindaA]

Yes welcome and great first post, Myjamfactory.
One of my big concerns since the beginning of this case which has grown over the weeks where Libby has remained unfound, has been the possibility that PR (if the perpetrator) went to his workplace or land/premises nearby that night/early morning. We know that perpetrators nearly always head somewhere familiar as they need to assess the likelihood of being seen/heard committing a crime and if it would be a good place for them to dispose of evidence.

The nature of PR's workplace is disturbing and why I hesitated to mention it but was hoping that as soon as they arrested PR they would be all over it as quickly as possible. One of the first cases I read about was a US family annihilator, Michael Blagg, who murdered his wife and daughter. Police obviously suspected him straight away as the husband, but failed to check his large work dumpster soon enough. They ended up having to track rubbish from his firm to the landfill where fortunately after weeks of hellish recovery work they were able to recover his wife Jennifer's body, although Abby his little daughter has never been found and he isn't telling. This ended up being a significant factor in convicting him, because of the connectivity between his workplace and where her body was located. I remember thinking every detective on that case probably forever had emblazoned in their mind "Check the work dumpsters", "NOW".
And if you look at the Chris Watts case, this is another example of where police made this link very quickly and so found Shannan and her daughters.
In Blagg's case, colleagues also remembered him on that day throwing loads of rubbish into the work dumpster (to cover the body) whereas previously he never went there. Hopefully police were able to question colleagues whether PR was doing anything unusual, throwing things away after that night. And if he "borrowed" anything from there, eg plastic sheeting, knives etc.

When you think about it, advances in DNA and autopsy techniques have and will motivate murderers much more to conceal bodies. So we can expect that more will try and use bodies of water, drive longer distances, or try and get the bodies into waste disposal systems or sites. In some (usually US cases, where a person goes missing near vast areas of wilderness, it is much harder to search) but people who disappear in urban UK towns should be found, so to me this strongly indicates deliberate concealment and therefore foul play.
Water sources of course complicate this, especially those that lead out to the sea, but I don't find the theory that Libby ended up in water accidentally very credible. Everyone on WS knows the young male + alcohol + body of water pattern that is horribly predictable but I think this is the vulnerable woman + meets predator = disappears pattern which is also horribly predictable. I only hope Libby's suffering was short and that her family and friends get answers.
I too, like others cling on to the hope that this case is one of those rare ones that defy the odds, it's always possible.

I also hope that the police are just taking time to build a strong case. They had the luxury of time, due to the other charges against PR, which they don't always have. They should have tonnes of info about him and his movements. They likely have a slew of and internet searches to go through which will tell them a lot about him and his fantasies and plans (and I don't mean his summer holidays). Predators sometimes write detailed plans/research.

I imagine police's strategy has been to just try and disprove everything he has said he did that night/morning. If he repeatedly changed his story when he or his car was caught on CCTV when he said he was elsewhere (and eg Libby can't be picked up on CCTV where he said he left her) then I think they will charge him eventually, hopefully with some physical evidence. And break any false alibis he or someone close to him may have given. Almost certainly this type of predator will keep something of the victim's so they can relive the crime. Hopefully if guilty, PR did not have time to clear things from his home before he went into custody and maybe they have already found something to connect him to Libby.

 

[Audiohoney]

Yes I'd very much like to know that ..I think he may have approached them

What are your thoughts on timeframe JosieJo ... did he make a call to LE soon after she went missing? Or days later when there were public appeals?

I’m thinking the opposite. I don’t think he said a word to anyone ... until LE came knocking.

 

[kate2931]

With the news that Helen’s killer is due to be released (already on day release) soon, I couldn’t help but think of similarities. Mum 'shocked' to see killer out in public

Helen’s body has never been found and her mam is campaigning for Helen’s law (find it on change.org), that a killer should never be released unless they give up the location.

What if Libby is sadly never found ?
Helen’s killer was convicted due to her earring being found in his car.
Say LE have Libby’s hair/scent in the car and PR’s admittance that she was in the car, could this similarly be enough to get a conviction ?
Even if he says she left his car unharmed, surely the evidence alongside the fact that Libby has not been found would be enough to at least get a trial?

I’m not sure what Helen’s killer said regarding the earring but I can only assume he tried to give a plausible explanation for her being in his car too, of course you would, right ? So assuming LE has other further evidence (cctv, forensics ..), like Helen’s case, there may be hope of a conviction without a body ?

ETA: after further research into the case, Helen’s was blood found in the car and his home so assuming (maybe wrongly) that we don’t have this level of evidence (PR would be charged?) much harder to get a conviction.

 

[DanCJ]

I just hope every time that I pass through Hull, that on one occasion I spot something that will finally shed much needed light and closure on this whole case. This is the first case I've properly followed and become quite emotionally invested in to say the least, the way I feel towards it I cant begin to imagine how drained Libby's family and friends are.

 

[Mommysleuth11]

Hello all, first post here. I have tried to read ALL previous threads but ill be honest i skipped a whole chunk part way through to catch up.

I do have some musings i would like to share, as a local i have heard rumours and also recieved info from a family member of an alleged victim of PRs but im unsure of precisely what constitutes what urgo i will err on the side of caution until i am more familiar.

So,

Firstly, i have seen many questions in relation to the local LE capabilities, and havent so far seen discussed the fact that humberside or BLUNDERside as they are often known is among the 3 worst performing forces in the country, im sure they were rated as inadequate and in vast need of improvements at the last official inspection.
That said i remember 4 similar missing women in the past 15-20 years in this city and 3 of the 4 were solved with convictions so we have to keep the faith in them.

I think spidercam is most likely PR and LS and im not sure what to make of the oak road cctv, although i do think its worth noting LE initially asked for dashcam footage of 1130-0300 hours and the last witness on oak road cctv was at 0235 (ish) so those timings fit approx, as others have said occams?? razor, the most likely scenario to me is that PR being (a known) sex offender, ok im jumping the gun a bit, was the last person to see libby alive and LE havent widened their seach area beyond the park. The river Hull/Humber estuary have some of the fiecest currents and i know some have dismissed it but if she went in the water as the tide was going out there is a possibility she would be washed out to the humber/north sea. There was recently a HUGE police presence at Paull after reports of a body in the water, they searched for 3 days, i think they believed they may find libby.

Its often very close to 3 months before a body washes up along the shores of the humber, i pray i am wrong.

As far as illegal taxis go, Hull is not known for them particularly, although there is a social media trend of people advertising 'taxiing' amongst friends its usually young people and just among friends. Haworth street wouldnt be the kind if place an illegal taxi would park as there is nothing there barring 1 pub. It just doesnt seem likely to me..
I do believe libby probably didnt have her keys so made her way to beverley rd, but i saw discussion in the early days as distressed being crying, imagine for a moment distressed actually meams severely inebreated, to the point not only can you not stand up straight, you cannot even manage to 'sit straight' you are literally rolling around on the floor to the point a passing motorist stops to 'check' you are ok. After picking you up and sitting you straight he recieves some verbal and decides to phone the police rather than put himself in a compromising position, just imagine for a second that is the case?
So much more to say on this but for now i will leave it.