Found Deceased UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #14 *ARREST*

[CoverMeCagney]

I like your polls @CoverMeCagney

Thanks, sometimes it's good to get an overall picture!

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Just popping back here to ask if anyone (local or not) can provide detailed information on phone masts in the area?

Thinking that without witnesses or more precise CCTV around Oak Park/Croda etc area (or just where plod were

reported searching /investigating - and I think reported is relevant as here we are going by MSM reports mostly and

we have no absolute knowledge of other areas searched) - phone pings are mightily useful.
ETA - Hand drawn maps would be great

Who was our phone mast expert on Corrie's case? Someone did a load of research into how it all works.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

No, I totally understand where @JosieJo is coming from, and I'm confident that it's not simply being dismissive.

The discovery of the body has understandably increased interest in the case around these parts, and with that we've had an influx of new posters - not all of whom seem to have caught up and grasped the rudimentary facts before offering theories and analysis. Some repetition is inevitable, but everyone should try their best to be informed before joining in. It's an emotive case for us all, and there's quite a few locals here who are struggling to come to terms with what has happened in their community.

Information degradation happens quite quickly in this thread if things aren't corrected, which is understandable given that people are posting from all over the world. You see it first with place names; Oak Road Playing Fields start to become 'Oak Park', Raglan Street becomes 'Raglan Road', the unrelated sluice is now on the River Hull, and then Pawel is supplementing the income from his 20 hour a day shifts by working as a part-time cycle courier.

Don't take it personally, we're just hoping to balance keeping a tight ship whilst encouraging debate and conversation.

Agreed that the discovery of the body has increased interest, but that is the case on WS. Many folks are working on other threads so when they see a major update to another thread they do come over. It is the nature of WS. A common goal to help out. Some folks may have even stopped by a thread now and then without comment. I understand the locals on this thread being protective, you have all given so much, honestly more than I have seen on other threads but we cannot dismiss other sleuths for trying to help. If they ask a goofy question sometimes simple guidance is much better than running them off. Some folks (not me I just starting with Mollie Tibbetts) have been here for many many years and can looks at things differently than us newbies. So I just ask that we all give each other a chance regardless of whether someone is local, not local, here since thread one, post one or just joining. We all here for the same reason. And hopefully you folks travel to other threads to offer insight. It is always welcome.

 

[jessie]

My phone signal corroborates this...

Would that be a mile (?) north and diagonally from the University has very poor coverage Vermont?

 

[Vermont24]

Here's a question...Do other network masts pick up your signal or is it only the network your on?

As far as I know (which isn't very far at all), certain networks piggyback each other. There's obviously a signal discrepancy in some areas though - I get terrible reception with EE on my street, but my friend on o2 has no issues.

But then is 'ping' even related to signal? I believe your device has a 'handshake' with nearby masts as you move around.

 

[Woollybear]

I must admit, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, that I'm struggling to keep up with these threads. You go away for a couple of hours and suddenly there are five more pages! It's great, obviously, that so many people want to help, don't get me wrong, I'm just owning up personally to not being able to keep up! Real life gets in the way sometimes.

So I thought I would have another little chat with myself, to try and get straight what I think we now know, or at least what I think I now know. Please forgive me if I perpetrate any inaccuracies and please feel free to put me straight. I won't be offended. I gave up being offended about anything in 1986 and you'd be amazed how much paperwork is saved by not giving a monkey's!

So the police have got to the stage where the suspect and LS are in the playing fields together and he admitted an encounter which he said was consensual. Then left the playing fields later on his own. It seems to me that the police will have to prove, to get a conviction for murder, that he intended to kill her, ie it wasn't just something that got out of hand, and that he actually did it. Of course, there may well be a smoking gun in the form of CCTV, witness statements, forensic evidence, etc, that the police are holding back in order to clobber the defence with it when the time comes for formal charges to be laid.

But as it stands, I can't see what is to stop him saying that she ran off after the encounter on the park bench and that was the last he saw of her.

As far as the body going into the River Hull, I am still rather like Shakespeare's description of "the cat i' the adage, letting I dare not wait upon I would". On the one hand, if he did suddenly end up with a dead body on his hands, then yes, the easiest way of disposing of it and also, probably, obfuscating any forensics, would be to dump it into the River Hull. Hat-tip to whoever it was who mentioned Occam's Razor - the simplest solution is often the best.

But I still boggle that from then on it travelled down river to the confluence and thence to the estuary without once being seen, or snagging on anything. Especially at low tide.

Are there any plausible alternatives?

Assuming the suspect had the presence of mind to hide the body somewhere and then return at a later time, wrap it in something, put it in his car and transport it elsewhere, then yes. He could have disposed of it further downstream where the River Hull is less claggy and there was less chance of discovery, or he could have found somewhere along the waterfront of Hull with the River Humber and dropped it in there. However, such places with sufficient deep water close inshore are not manifold, and there is always CCTV. Although having said that, in places like Wincolmlee, the CCTV would most likely be private businesses each safeguarding their own patch, which would make it more difficult for the police to a) obtain it and b) go through it and of course some people just overwrite it every week anyway...

One other option has occurred to me, although it is less likely, I am the first to admit. That LS's encounter with the suspect wasn't the last encounter she had that night. If she did indeed manage to evade him after his alleged assault on her, who is to say where she might have wandered off to or ended up. I agree the chances of there being more than one predatory stalker on the loose might be vanishingly small, but if she did meet her ultimate fate somewhere where the perpetrator had the wherewithal to conceal the evidence, and a vehicle unknown to police because they have been concentrating on the existing suspect, then all bets are off. He could indeed have taken her somewhere like the disused fish dock and put her in the Humber there (for locals, I'm thinking of the bit near the old Lord Line building.) In which case she may not have been in the water as long as some people surmise.

At the end of the day, until and unless the full story comes out at trial (assuming someone is charged and pleads not guilty) we just won't know.

I think that's more or less where I've got to.

By the way - this thing about new members - I'm sorry if I've been guilty of posting stuff where I perhaps should have looked it up but it is often simply a case of lack of time. I actually joined in 2015 and posted on the Claudia Lawrence threads because I was thinking of writing something about her, but the ground has been so thoroughly covered, indeed stomped, that in the end I didn't bother. By the way, though, the Ouse in York is a much better bet for the disposal of bodies than the River Hull. In fact I believe there have been a couple of tragedies in the last few years where youngsters coming home from pubs and clubs have ended up in the River Ouse. If you had that in mind when you were thinking of the River Hull, then they are in fact two quite different things.

 

[jessie]

Who was our phone mast expert on Corrie's case? Someone did a load of research into how it all works.

Yes Cags was hoping for the same detail here. Crossing pings/different masts etc. Remain hopeful there is a techno person reading here.

 

[Cherwell]

Agreed that the discovery of the body has increased interest, but that is the case on WS. Many folks are working on other threads so when they see a major update to another thread they do come over. It is the nature of WS. A common goal to help out. Some folks may have even stopped by a thread now and then without comment. I understand the locals on this thread being protective, you have all given so much, honestly more than I have seen on other threads but we cannot dismiss other sleuths for trying to help. If they ask a goofy question sometimes simple guidance is much better than running them off. Some folks (not me I just starting with Mollie Tibbetts) have been here for many many years and can looks at things differently than us newbies. So I just ask that we all give each other a chance regardless of whether someone is local, not local, here since thread one, post one or just joining. We all here for the same reason. And hopefully you folks travel to other threads to offer insight. It is always welcome.

Speaking for myself, I'm under no illusion that I can help in any way. Frankly, I am just intrigued by a mystery, and interested in how the police go about solving a case and proving a suspect's guilt. I have absolutely no pretensions to be of any help whatsoever.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Yes Cags was hoping for the same detail here. Crossing pings/different masts etc. Remain hopeful there is a techno person reading here.

@Miss_French can you remember?

 

[Heathyheath_]

With all due respect, I do not think anyway can speak to what I have seen. I understand what you are saying but I truly remember seeing this and as I said it could have been pertaining to something else.

If I tell people that I seen a pig flying past in the sky and a comet plummeting down into my back garden, then they have every right to tell me that I didn’t in fact see this all, because it’s impossible to have happened.

If nobody else on this forum of obsessive true crime sleuths, who have covered the case in great detail has discussed footage that would be extremely relevant to the case, then I think, it’s fair for somebody to say that footage of Libby on the bench has not been released and therefore there is no possible way that you have seen it.

They’re more than entitled to say that, just like they’d be more than entitled to tell me that I didn’t see the flying pig.

 

[Vermont24]

Would that be a mile (?) north and diagonally from the University has very poor coverage Vermont?

I'm off Newland Avenue - apparently the trees interrupt signal...

 

[janeh]

Me too. Besides the distance she would have travelled down the river Hull and the reeds in parts, at low tide the river is almost non existent. I think if she had gone straight in the Humber she would have been lost to the sea before she was found. I dont know where she entered the water but Im not convinced it was at Oak Road.

I have been thinking about this too. In the early days was it mentioned that PR liked fishing. If so, perhaps he would have an idea where you could get close to the water edge fairly easily in a remote spot. I haven't mentioned this previously because we have been convinced that everything happened at Oak Road Park.

 

[jessie]

As far as I know (which isn't very far at all), certain networks piggyback each other. There's obviously a signal discrepancy in some areas though - I get terrible reception with EE on my street, but my friend on o2 has no issues.

But then is 'ping' even related to signal? I believe your device has a 'handshake' with nearby masts as you move around.

That sounds reasonable Vermont. I have no knowledge, but think the phone looks for signals and some might not be strong enough though it will still handshake.

The area north of Oak Road Park and University (in fact north of Hull) looks bleak on the map. Really need someone knowledgeable here since imoo it is an important point re. positions of various people.

 

[jessie]

I'm off Newland Avenue - apparently the trees interrupt signal...

How dismal.... what an excuse for your phone provider - trees ! course the UK doesn't have many of those does it !!

 

[ChiCubs2016]

If I tell people that I seen a pig flying past in the sky and a comet plummeting down into my back garden, then they have every right to tell me that I didn’t in fact see this all, because it’s impossible to have happened.

If nobody else on this forum of obsessive true crime sleuths, who have covered the case in great detail has discussed footage that would be extremely relevant to the case, then I think, it’s fair for somebody to say that footage of Libby on the bench has not been released and therefore there is no possible way that you have seen it.

They’re more than entitled to say that, just like they’d be more than entitled to tell me that I didn’t see the flying pig.

See now, I would be polite and say, "well that is truly amazing, a pig flying past a comet in your back garden. Lucky you!'

And also maybe it was only one other person but someone else did indicate they thought they saw the same thing which is what I was replying to. In any event it is not always what is said, but how it is said. And IMO, I thought my idea of seeing footage was being dismissed not debated. And we should not be dismissive here. This is not what this forum is about.

 

[Miss_French]

Looking at that map you posted seems north of Hull is very poorly covered by masts? This would be basing my search on Oak Road Playing Fields of course?
Am I wrong here?

If you click on the markers for the masts, then the photos, you'll see they are tall tower masts which have a decent range, hence less of them needed for coverage.

 

[Heathyheath_]

See now, I would be polite and say, "well that is truly amazing, a pig flying past a comet in your back garden. Lucky you!'

And also maybe it was only one other person but someone else did indicate they thought they saw the same thing which is what I was replying to. In any event it is not always what is said, but how it is said. And IMO, I thought my idea of seeing footage was being dismissed not debated. And we should not be dismissive here. This is not what this forum is about.

I know where you’re coming from and there’s definitely a polite way to discuss something but I’ve always felt like it can be detrimental to discuss in too much detail something that can be proven as false.

It’s kind of like the other night when there was pages of discussion over whether Libby ended up in a sluicer... The user who pushed that theory is a brilliant poster who has been an invaluable asset in a lot of other cases but because this theory was so unlikely and was being presented as fact, we had tonnes of pages arguing and debating something that never could have happened. I believe it’s fair enough to shut down something that blatantly didn’t happen.

I think what you and the other user were discussing may have been some of the other footage of Libby that was released from that night. There was a fair bit so it’s an easy mistake to make.

 

[Woollybear]

The old dock is actually a bit past the St Andrews retail park - though it. The second pic is round the back of the old derelict Lord Line building - I must admit I wasn't aware that the Humber was quite so close, despite being born in Hull and going to school in Hessle... Irritatingly, it seems Google never bothered sending their Streetview camera car down the semi-disused service roads round the old dock. Probably scared of getting their hub caps nicked.

 

[jessie]

If you click on the markers for the masts, then the photos, you'll see they are tall tower masts which have a decent range, hence less of them needed for coverage.

Thank you so much. Great information and very helpful.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

Speaking for myself, I'm under no illusion that I can help in any way. Frankly, I am just intrigued by a mystery, and interested in how the police go about solving a case and proving a suspect's guilt. I have absolutely no pretensions to be of any help whatsoever.

Me either. I have been following since the beginning and just found out yesterday the bench is not located on Howarth. I am good at interrogating though. My family calls me "Judge Judy".