GUILTY UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #15 *ARREST*

[EricaAmbrose1]

Hope this article may be helpful in showing the possible reason for delay in charging .Just hoping ..https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/features/the-truth-about-toxicology-tests

 

[EricaAmbrose1]

Another perhaps insight to the investigation ?https://www.sciencemag.org/careers/...ropologists-identify-victims-and-solve-crimes

 

[cluciano63]

So if Homocide covers murder and manslaughter they must have evidence to know she was killed unlawfully either way. And no charges yet in my opinion doesn’t mean they don’t know, quite the opposite. Something is obviously taking a lot of time to piece together. They would have stated by now if they were looking for another suspect. They’d have to clear PR, they really would if they think he had no involvement in her death.

Those teams would investigate any suspicious, unwitnessed death, whether announced or not.

 

[Newthoughts]

I totally understand that homicide includes murder .. but never before have I heard a uk police force declare a homicide investigation before ..if the PM found signs of foul play it would be specifically a murder inquiry
I'm not saying it cant be murder but the woolly, non specific term suggests the police do not have signs of murder on PM
This of course may change if further info comes forward
I know I must sound like a stuck record, I also desperately want justice and I very much respect others opinion but I'm very much struggling to see this any other way at the moment

They continue to call it homicide.

PR was released under investigation and they haven't cleared him as a suspect or said he's no longer under investigation. IMO that is as significant as the fact he hasn't been charged yet. I'd have thought his solicitor would push for LE to publicly say he was no longer under investigation.

Tests do take time especially as Libby wasn't found for some time. @EricaAmbrose1 has put looks to the time taken to do toxicology tests and chemical tests. But are others that take time. Forensic IT has been used in rape and murder cases to show intent. That's a long process particularly if PR has gone onto the dark web

Going through associates takes time. Every witness statement will take time. Every link will take time to fit. Everything will be complicated by the fact PRs early life was in Poland and a lot of people with useful info here could possibly need interpreters.

If it were my child I'd want every test done. If PRs offending history is even more interesting than we've seen so far than LE might be making sure they correct any previous mistakes such as not bothering with seemingly trivial crimes..

Hope so anyway. Libby needs justice

 

[Cherwell]

I totally understand that homicide includes murder .. but never before have I heard a uk police force declare a homicide investigation before ..if the PM found signs of foul play it would be specifically a murder inquiry
I'm not saying it cant be murder but the woolly, non specific term suggests the police do not have signs of murder on PM
This of course may change if further info comes forward
I know I must sound like a stuck record, I also desperately want justice and I very much respect others opinion but I'm very much struggling to see this any other way at the moment

You are attaching significance to the term 'homicide' simply because you haven't come across it before. The police are using the wider, less specific term because they are keeping an open mind until they have more evidence. I am sure this is standard operating procedure.

I would add that there can be a fine line between murder and manslaughter, which is why killers often plead not guilty to murder but guilty to manslaughter.

 

[JosieJo]

You are attaching significance to the term 'homicide' simply because you haven't come across it before. The police are using the wider, less specific term because they are keeping an open mind until they have more evidence. I am sure this is standard operating procedure.

I would add that there can be a fine line between murder and manslaughter, which is why killers often plead not guilty to murder but guilty to manslaughter.

It's not simply because I personally have not come across this I have searched at length and I cannot find any comparable case where this term was used ...imo they used it for a reason..so yes I am attaching significance...how can their choice of investigation not be significant? and their recent brief announcements seem to compound their lack of progress

I totally agree the police are using the wider term homicide until they get more evidence...I feel they do not have evidence at present to consider murder in itself ..this of course may change

 

[Cherwell]

It's not simply because I personally have not come across this I have searched at length and I cannot find any comparable case where this term was used ...imo they used it for a reason..so yes I am attaching significance...how can their choice of investigation not be significant? and their recent brief announcements seem to compound their lack of progress

I totally agree the police are using the wider term homicide until they get more evidence...I feel they do not have evidence at present to consider murder in itself ..this of course may change

Like I said, it will be SOP (standard operating procedure) where the circumstances are not clear. You say "comparable cases" but most murder/manslaughter cases are solved quickly with the body being found early, so we don't hear much from the police. You haven't come across it before because most cases don't receive as much publicity. Yes, it's an unusual case, but not because the word homicide is being used.

 

[EricaAmbrose1]

@JosieJoe I agree with you.Ididnt research as thoroughly Each time I put into Google words 'Unsolved Homicide cases uk or 'solved Homicide cases uk 'The Google search automatically brought up murder cases no use of the word homicide. Then I found this .(Applogies if it's been posted before) Someone can perhaps explain better than me or correct me but it appears to me to be that changes to use the word Homicide have been made in the very recent past

Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics

 

[JosieJo]

Like I said, it will be SOP (standard operating procedure) where the circumstances are not clear. You say "comparable cases" but most murder/manslaughter cases are solved quickly with the body being found early, so we don't hear much from the police. You haven't come across it before because most cases don't receive as much publicity. Yes, it's an unusual case, but not because the word homicide is being used.

I think we are actually agreeing here ..this is my only point ..the circumstances are not clear ..I agree they usually are hence why we dont hear homicide very much in publicised cases

 

[EricaAmbrose1]

(Taken from the link.)When the police initially record an offence as a homicide it remains classified as such unless the police or courts decide that a lesser offence, or no offence, took place.

 

[Newthoughts]

I think we are actually agreeing here ..this is my only point ..the circumstances are not clear ..I agree they usually are hence why we dont hear homicide very much in publicised cases

Could well be the complexities of PRs past history. He's had interesting charges leveled at him over a two year period with a significant percentage in the weeks leading to Libby's disappearance.

We've also had other shifts in police language. They moved from arrested on suspicion of abduction to kidnapping after his arrest part way through the questioning him. And from missing person to fear she'd come to harm again at a point part way through questioning.

Police went straight to potential homicide when she was found. And to Homicide at the inquest. So I don't think anything about this case is as it seems. But I don't think LE are in the dark either

 

[EricaAmbrose1]

(Taken from previouse link )Where there are multiple suspects, they are categorised in the Homicide Index as either the principal or a secondary suspect. There is only ever one principal suspect per homicide victim.

 

[Lucid Dreamer]

The high ceiling style room is a given thought to her perpetrators abode, I'd also check above indian late night shops in their flats above the shops too.

 

[Sera]

@Lucid Dreamer May I ask what you're suggesting LE search for in these places that you've seen in your dreams? You do realise that Libby was already found weeks ago, right?

 

[mrjitty]

Homicide is death caused by someone else - either murder or manslaughter. That choice of word must mean they are sure her death could not, in any circumstances, be described as accidental .

It's many years since I studied Crimes but I believe this statement is not technically correct.

Culpable homicide is either murder or manslaughter (depends on intention)

Homicide which is neither murder of manslaughter is not culpable (i.e not an offence)

So a homicide investigation indicates suspicion someone was involved in the death of the deceased but is open minded about criminal intent.

Personally I think everyone is far too invested in these labels which tell us very little about the scope and direction of the inquiries.

 

[mrjitty]

Or perhaps that they are 100% sure homicide occurred but can't prove it to the levels required.

Homicide tells us about the actus reus of the offence. i.e, the victim is dead - via the unlawful act or omission of another person.

Proving a homicide wouldn't appear to be the problem if they can rule out Libby jumping in on her own accord

Strictly speaking the label homicide leaves open 3 possibilities. Murder, Manslaughter or accident.

But again I wouldn't place much reliance on what the police are calling it.

 

[cluciano63]

Homicide tells us about the actus reus of the offence. i.e, the victim is dead - via the unlawful act or omission of another person.

Proving a homicide wouldn't appear to be the problem if they can rule out Libby jumping in on her own accord

Strictly speaking the label homicide leaves open 3 possibilities. Murder, Manslaughter or accident.

But again I wouldn't place much reliance on what the police are calling it.

Or that she fell in, rather than jumped. Depending on cause of death, accident vs. murder may be difficult to determine. Jmo

 

[Newthoughts]

Or that she fell in, rather than jumped. Depending on cause of death, accident vs. murder may be difficult to determine. Jmo

Admittedly I'm getting my definition of homicide from Wikipedia but my understanding is the death must be causally linked to the actions of another and that there are two types - murder and manslaughter.

My understanding of the manslaughter is that 'accident' part constitutes a lesser form of manslaughter and has to Involve gross negligence or breaches of duty of care. My guess would be that wouldn't apply here. PR had no duty of care and I can't see how negligence applies.

So my guess would be that would apply to something like a garage failing to tighten wheels leading to a fatal accident or failure. But as I say that is only my understanding of the definition. Legal experts could correct me.

I will say use of language in this case has been very precise and measured. Libby was last seen in the early hours of 1st Feb. It was treated as a missing person case.
P
was arrested on Wed 6th Feb on suspicion of abduction. It remained a missing person case. Even though police were clearly searching Rivers, ponds and drains.

PR was charged with unrelated offences on Sunday 10th. On the 14th the police changed from missing person enquiry to saying fear Libby had come to some harm. Also at some point Abduction changed to kidnapping.

I don't know what is implied by those changes in language as I think LE must have feared Libby had come to harm very early on given their searches. Does that imply something from forensics or not?

I'm not sure of the subtle difference between abduction and kidnap either.

Apart from politicians and journalists I think most professions use language carefully and cautiously. So I think Homicide must preclude Libby being alive when she entered water. But that is just my opinion and a legally qualified expert would untangle the gross negligence / duty of care part better than me

 

[mrjitty]

Or that she fell in, rather than jumped. Depending on cause of death, accident vs. murder may be difficult to determine. Jmo

Sure.

These are the fundamentals of the actus reus that must be proved.

 

[cluciano63]

How a death is investigated is not a determination of what actually happened. Most unattended deaths, unless that of an elderly, ill person will be investigated. What they call the process matters less than what is discovered. I think people are getting hung up on official terms. This is a wait & see case, imo.