UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20

[Newthoughts]

Just playing Devil's advocate here, @Newthoughts
His previous crimes were very different to rape and murder. Not one of them involved stalking or physical contact with women. He's a menace to women, of course, but in a very specific way. All of his roaming around in the dark and researching studenty areas can be explained by his obsession with publicly masturbating etc. He was in the park having sex with Libby. She walked away. He was heading back to his car and heard a load of screaming. It scared him. He hastened back to his car and left. He thought about it later and returned because he was worried about what could have happened to Libby. I'm sure this is what his defence counsel will claim, or something similar.

Every rapist and murderer has previous crimes that aren't rape and murder. Everyone starts somewhere.

His previous pattern of offending is not an unusual precursor to those crimes. How often have we heard of rapists and murderers that start like that

His previous convictions got him a sentence of 8 1/2 years despite the maximum sentence for each one only being between 2 and 3 years and despite reductions for pleading guilty.

That was because, according to the evidence put before the judge, the nature of those offences and the history of them meant he felt they warranted quite a long sentence and therefore they would run consecutively rather than concurrently. I didn't know such things happened in law.

So an experienced judge saw something in that evidence. His summing up suggested he saw planning not randomness. We know he got kicks from terrorising otherwise he'd be at home watching and using sex workers.

He didn't look away when caught watching for example. He returned to one victim despite knowing she was terrified. The judge saw something dangerous in that

We have several witnesses to say Libby was vulnerable and distressed. Assuming an element of truth in every lie - I suspect his truth was the fact she was crying for her mum by the time he picked her up. An odd comment when nothing else about her was in the public domain.

No one that was normal would have taken advantage there. Several people had tried to help. Others walked away. Cos normal decent people don't do that . The type of person that would, in my opinion only, is capable of quite a lot more.

 

[Newthoughts]

Go, Prof Deakin!

Seconded! Go Prof Deakin!

 

[mrazda71]

For me it is believable she was raped but not so obvious she was murdered
In my opinion it is very believable she ended in the river on her own(not jumped in the river like someone suggested before but simply fell into it)
She was very drunk and disoriented, she couldn't even find her own home on the street with lights so why you think it is impossible she walked in wrong direction on the dark field
It is possible that she passed out during rape and after he gone she woke up and walked in wrong direction still drunk and hypodermic
I don't belive he planned any murder his behaviour after was too chaotic ,is difficult to belive he was studied river tide time to disposed her body (for me it is just big imagination people from this forum)
It is simple bloke not sophisticated murder it was opportunity crime
And he probably would rape again if he would go away with this rape but I'm not sure if he murder her and I hope judges will have doubts too.

IF Libby had ended up in the water while alive - jumped, stumbled, crawled, rolled - she would have showed big signs of drowning- the pathologist said she did not have big signs of drowning. She did not get into the water by herself.

IF just rape was what he wanted - why didn't he rape her in his car? Why didn't he drive to anywhere else to rape her then kick her out of his car? Instead he researched the park before and then took her there to rape her and she ended up in the river.

I genuinely feel empathy for you but, she is dead and whether he put her in the river or not - he is still responsible for her being dead. Her death is his fault.

 

[astheworldfallsdown]

Seconded! Go Prof Deakin!

Thirded, way to go Professor Deakin.

 

[H Scully]

Just playing Devil's advocate here, @Newthoughts
His previous crimes were very different to rape and murder. Not one of them involved stalking or physical contact with women. He's a menace to women, of course, but in a very specific way. All of his roaming around in the dark and researching studenty areas can be explained by his obsession with publicly masturbating etc. He was in the park having sex with Libby. She walked away. He was heading back to his car and heard a load of screaming. It scared him. He hastened back to his car and left. He thought about it later and returned because he was worried about what could have happened to Libby. I'm sure this is what his defence counsel will claim, or something similar.

Have you read this ?

link Every twisted act committed by sexual predator Pawel Relowicz.

These will only be some of his crimes, not all will be reported, many will have not enough evidence to go to court. If you read the link, they were believed not to opportunistic and required planning.

This might not be his first rape, not all rapes are reported

 

[jamjim]

11:47
Prof Deakin asked whether Libby could safely find her way home?
Prof Deakin has been cross-examined by defence barrister Oliver Saxby QC.

Asked whether Libby could safely find her way home Prof Deakine said: “I’m not going to give you a yes or no answer. You may want it to be but a lot of this is subjective. I would say I see no reason why an hour later her behaviour would be any different.”

Mr Saxby said: “May she have taken the wrong route or got lost? May she have been unaware of obvious danger?”

Professor Deakin said: “Her assessment of danger is likely to be impaired.”

“May she be likely to have been disorientated in the dark?”

Professor Deakin said: “She may have been.”

Mr Saxby said: “You say she may have been vulnerable but would she may have also been very vulnerable to her own misadventure?”

Professor Deakin said: “She may have been, yes.”

Libby Squire trial live: Latest updates from court

 

[Officer Dibble]

BBM - and a ground cover of snow which illuminates significantly too. At first I was imagining a 'can't see your hand in front of your face' darkness but, it would seem that that wasn't the case.

I also envisaged a totally dark environment. I wonder if he planned for a moonlit night after his previous scopes of the park ? JMO MOO

 

[JosieJo]

10:46
Questions Prof Deakin asked to explore

• What would be the physical and mental impact on Libby on being exposed to the cold from 10.30pm to 12.09am?
• What would be the contribution of the alcohol impact on Libby?
• Would her decision-making be impaired as a result of the cold and alcohol?
• Would her vulnerability be affected by the cold, alcohol and any decision-making?
• Would her ability to defend herself from an assault be affected by the answers to the first four questions?

Libby Squire trial live: Latest updates from court

I think this will be a difficult one ...because all of factors here that help prove the rape also increase her liklihood of accidentally falling into the river ...thats if the defence even go this route which is not confirmed yet

11:47
Prof Deakin asked whether Libby could safely find her way home?
Prof Deakin has been cross-examined by defence barrister Oliver Saxby QC.

Asked whether Libby could safely find her way home Prof Deakine said: “I’m not going to give you a yes or no answer. You may want it to be but a lot of this is subjective. I would say I see no reason why an hour later her behaviour would be any different.”

Mr Saxby said: “May she have taken the wrong route or got lost? May she have been unaware of obvious danger?”

Professor Deakin said: “Her assessment of danger is likely to be impaired.”

“May she be likely to have been disorientated in the dark?”

Professor Deakin said: “She may have been.”

Mr Saxby said: “You say she may have been vulnerable but would she may have also been very vulnerable to her own misadventure?”

Professor Deakin said: “She may have been, yes.”

Libby Squire trial live: Latest updates from court

This is exactly the problem here...all this seals the rape but also seals her being prone to "misadventure" when being near a river

This is what is so frustrating in this case ..if her perception was normal and her behaviour not altered this "doubt" would not be there...so frustrating

 

[Vermont24]

I also envisaged a totally dark environment. I wonder if he planned for a moonlit night after his previous scopes of the park ? JMO MOO

I think many of us will have walked across a snow-covered field at night and been taken by just how bright everything is.

 

[Officer Dibble]

Have you read this ?

link Every twisted act committed by sexual predator Pawel Relowicz.

These will only be some of his crimes, not all will be reported, many will have not enough evidence to go to court. If you read the link, they were believed not to opportunistic and required planning.

This might not be his first rape, not all rapes are reported

I'd not noticed this part before: "The couple recognised him as the "Polish neighbour who the woman had she had given her Wi-Fi code to" when he moved in a few years earlier."

 

[Officer Dibble]

I think this will be a difficult one ...because all of factors here that help prove the rape also increase her liklihood of accidentally falling into the river ...thats if the defence even go this route which is not confirmed yet


This is exactly the problem here...all this seals the rape but also seals her being prone to "misadventure" when being near a river

This is what is so frustrating in this case ..if her perception was normal and her behaviour not altered this "doubt" would not be there...so frustrating

Has his current conviction/s been mentioned in court or is that not allowed? He is currently in prison. Are the jury told all this?

 

[Officer Dibble]

Well I am sure I would be considered a ‘reasonable’ person, however, whilst I can see why he is in the frame, I remain to be convinced that he should be found guilty of murder at this point.
I love this forum and come here to hear everyone’s thoughts and follow their processses. It is a wonderful thing that we see things in different ways, and I have learnt so much. I am uncomfortable when people are shot down for a different point of view.

I often put up opposing views as its good to debate all possibilities. Don't stop doing that please.

 

[jamjim]

Has his current conviction/s been mentioned in court or is that not allowed? He is currently in prison. Are the jury told all this?

Yes, they've been told! The police explained in court they'd found a pink holdall full of sex toys/photos/underwear whilst searching his car and then told the jury his previous convictions, which is great!

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Been following every day from afar but I just have a wondering about the timeline. I know we’ve seen it emphasised about the 7 minutes, and that the murder had to have happened within that time frame. But then I’m sure I read testimony referring to cctv showing that PR’s car moved for the final time around 2.30am and then didn’t move until the next morning? or some time around there. So are we to theorise that after murdering Libby he spent the next 2 hours roaming around, ‘jogging’, masturbating in the street. Or did the actual murder take place later? Did he rape and leave her in the park and ran off, then returned later to find she was still there (possibly unconscious, non responsive due to cold), and then put her in the river thinking dna evidence would be washed away. He was certainly very active that night, I can imagine him parking somewhere else and running back and forth to commit the crime/ cover his tracks.

Sorry if this doesn’t make much sense I’m going to go back now and try and find the testimony I was referring to.

 

[Newthoughts]

I think this will be a difficult one ...because all of factors here that help prove the rape also increase her liklihood of accidentally falling into the river ...thats if the defence even go this route which is not confirmed yet

11:17
Libby could have remained alive for an hour in the River Hull
Professor Deakin estimated the water temperature of the River Hull and concluded it was unlikely to be more than 10C.

He then “went on to consider if a conscious individual entered water at that temperature, on a standing basis” and estimated how long they would remain conscious before succumbing to exhaustion.

Professor Deakin estimated they would remain conscious for 30 to 60 minutes.

He said he estimated that person would die within one to three hours of being exposed to water at that temperature.

He added: “Looking at the effects of alcohol and she (Libby) was cold when she got in, if that happened, perhaps 30 minutes before she lost consciousness and around one hour before death occurred.”

Libby Squire trial live: Latest updates from court

If Libby had entered the water herself he concludes I hour before death would occur. There would be more evidence sof death by drowning IMO. Take it with yesterdays expert who said he could not conclude she didn't drown but that it was not his likely conclusion.

 

[Vera_dci]

If Libby had entered the water herself he concludes I hour before death would occur. There would be more evidence sof death by drowning IMO. Take it with yesterdays expert who said he could not conclude she didn't drown but that it was not his likely conclusion.

And very likely more screams. Imo it's not a coincidence the screams stopped and then PR was seen running from the area after.

 

[Officer Dibble]

11:17
Libby could have remained alive for an hour in the River Hull
Professor Deakin estimated the water temperature of the River Hull and concluded it was unlikely to be more than 10C.

He then “went on to consider if a conscious individual entered water at that temperature, on a standing basis” and estimated how long they would remain conscious before succumbing to exhaustion.

Professor Deakin estimated they would remain conscious for 30 to 60 minutes.

He said he estimated that person would die within one to three hours of being exposed to water at that temperature.

He added: “Looking at the effects of alcohol and she (Libby) was cold when she got in, if that happened, perhaps 30 minutes before she lost consciousness and around one hour before death occurred.”

Libby Squire trial live: Latest updates from court

Even if unconscious?

 

[Newthoughts]

Has his current conviction/s been mentioned in court or is that not allowed? He is currently in prison. Are the jury told all this?

Yes they have been. I was surprised but I guess the judge deemed them relevant. Which IMOO they are. They give a fuller picture

 

[Officer Dibble]

Been following every day from afar but I just have a wondering about the timeline. I know we’ve seen it emphasised about the 7 minutes, and that the murder had to have happened within that time frame. But then I’m sure I read testimony referring to cctv showing that PR’s car moved for the final time around 2.30am and then didn’t move until the next morning? or some time around there. So are we to theorise that after murdering Libby he spent the next 2 hours roaming around, ‘jogging’, masturbating in the street. Or did the actual murder take place later? Did he rape and leave her in the park and ran off, then returned later to find she was still there (possibly unconscious, non responsive due to cold), and then put her in the river thinking dna evidence would be washed away. He was certainly very active that night, I can imagine him parking somewhere else and running back and forth to commit the crime/ cover his tracks.

Sorry if this doesn’t make much sense I’m going to go back now and try and find the testimony I was referring to.

You've missed the part where he went home and surfed the internet and had a bath then went out again.

 

[Officer Dibble]

Yes they have been. I was surprised but I guess the judge deemed them relevant. Which IMOO they are. They give a fuller picture

Thanks I had forgotten that