UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21

[TreiseOg]

Just to clarify - the second visit was the one with Libby around midnight.
The four-minute visit was the third.
He had also been there earlier, before the encounter with Libby.

Thanks for this!

 

[Corneileus]

Nearly finally this is what is part of an area atop of the second slope, there is actually a pontoon closer than this though they were not there at the time of Libbys disappearance but those spots were used to sit on and fish, very easy to fall in or put in.

 

[Corneileus]

Thanks for this!

worth considering that the timescales could be inaccurate but actually stated as shorter than the timescale really was. presuming most thought of this possible factor..what if he was there longer, a minute or two?

 

[Corneileus]

pawel may not have parked up as far as these bollards, but they were not there when libby and pawel were. They have been put there to prevent people pulling up in the cars and drug dealing and dogging on the park which i have seen both of many times, dogging in the summer, i dont ride there too often in winter but my mates walk there dogs and they say watch out on a night. one can often still see activity of people pulling up in cars near the entrance to the layby and hanging around on their phones and then so on.

Given everything it is still hard to really proove he killed libby.
He sure as hell helped her on her way if nothing else. end.

 

[LucyRocket]

im


Ive gotta drink these beers aswell.

of course!

 

[LucyRocket]

Dammit. I was hoping the next photo was gonna be the view from the witness’s bedroom window.

Back you go... things you need: your camera, a stopwatch, a tape measure, and a body. Also take your magnifying glass and Websleuths lanyard, just in case.

AND an alibi

 

[Corneileus]

back to...timescales, tried my hardest to make them work, i dont like stating that i would like them to work, but they dont. If they are to work, pawel has to put libby in the water using the steeper route to the river, and this may include completing the disposal on the third visit. I have recalculated the run from the nearest access to the river (steeper slope up to the bank) back to the layby where pawel would of HAD to have been parked. I now conclude for an average man his age that it would be more like a minute plus 10,20,30 secs to exit the park from the river bank. it is fairly easy to read from google earth. He would of needed more time maybe. thats it by im gone best wishes.

 

[mrazda71]

very good post too! His lies wont have helped though, if he hasnt indeed killed her,.. say he left her unconscious and someone else killed her? its not impossible although very difficult to believe/fathom. His final return of four minutes may have been to look for any cameras, to see if he should expect to be traced. He wasnt looking for Libby, he managed to do it all in the timescale in the second visit? He was scoping for cameras??

But the story that he is telling us, after swearing an oath on the bible to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but, the truth, is that they had consensual sex so ... if we are being asked to believe that, then why would he be concerned about being 'traced'? He merely 'cheated on his wife' and Libby stumbled off alive... not an arrest able offence.

 

[DanCJ]

Just to clarify - the second visit was the one with Libby around midnight.
The four-minute visit was the third.
He had also been there earlier, before the encounter with Libby.

1st visit: (timeframe unknown to me)

Just out of interest do we know the timings of his first visit to the park? Also I have visited the park and seen the River Hull that snakes behind the Oak Road Playing Fields, did we ever establish the depth of it? Could someone stand up in it, how submerged would you be?

2nd visit (12.11 am to 12.19 am)

I think the timings are tight but not impossible, especially when you factor in adrenaline and the human fight-or-flight response. I think at the time he couldn't believe his luck that a drunken vulnerable girl who had been isolated from her friends was available to be whisked by him to his familiar haunt. I think his sexual urges started building and escalating quite rapidly, from discovery, to talking to her, to getting her into his vehicle to arriving outside the park. By the time they both got into the park he could not hold back his intentions, he's either exposed himself or made another move which has terrified her and she's began to run further into the park. The terror of the danger Libby finds herself acts to help sober her slightly as she screams to try and draw attention from others to come to her aid. PR makes chase, not wanting to lose what he views as a 'golden opportunity' for his sexual release and realises he needs to silence her to protect himself from incrimination. He catches her in the wooded area close to the river where he brings her to the ground before raping and strangling her at the same time. Once his sexual satisfaction has been achieved which dominated his judgement, it suddenly dawns on PR what a serious situation he has got himself in and what he stands to lose making him promptly sprint out of the park in a panic.

3rd visit (2.25 to 2.29 am)

This is the visit that confirms all guilt in my eyes. There is no need to re-visit this area again two hours later if you had a clear conscience and knew you both parted on good terms. I think after he's composed himself he goes into full self-preservation mode. He does not want to go back to the park but he cannot risk someone else finding the body. His visit is very fast as he knows where he's going, where her body his, where he will put it, he doesn't want to linger enough to be seen and this is his only chance before morning comes and risk of others finding his DNA on her body. So he places her into the river and sprints off.

I think PR is a very dangerous individual where lying and manipulating the truth comes second nature to him in order for him to fulfil his goals. I firmly believe if it was not Libby it would have been another young woman and if not caught he would strike again in time. I pray Libby's family receive the justice they deserve.

 

[Newthoughts]

He could have asked Libby where she lived and then jumped for joy as driving to ORPF from Haworth Street is almost going to her house. You can can loop round a couple of those streets. He was probably happy when she said it as he could get her almost there before she would have even got suspicious. Much easier than if she had said she lived at the Lawns or or off Newland etc.

But nobody else could understand her when she tried to explain where she lived and they wereb native English speakers. Even he had said she didn't know but would show him.

 

[Newthoughts]

I also wonder if no faith in his translator could facilitate an appeal

Is it possible that the translator is fine but PR is not particularly articulate?

 

[Newthoughts]

and the reason for his first visit too?

And his drone footage on the 30th

 

[Mommysleuth11]

Sorry you are wrong when you say she became aggressive when he refused a hug. I think she became abusive when she went to the car and noticed the other gentleman. Maybe she felt threatened by two men rather than one. Or frustrated he coukdnt understand her IMO.

Darts witness :

He said: “I asked her to stand up but she was just mumbling, I couldn’t understand what she was saying.
“She asked me to lay down with her, I said, ‘No.’ I helped her to her feet, I had to grab her by her arms. Her legs weren’t working at first.”he then sat Libby on the wall behind the bus stop and asked her where she lived “so I could give her a lift home.”
“I asked at first if she had a phone so I could call someone to come and get her and she said her friends had it. I asked where they were and I couldn’t understand what she was saying.”
Mr Jacobs said as he went to ask Alan if he could understand her, Libby made her way over to the car.

He said: “I asked her where she lived and I couldn’t understand her. She went back to the wall.”

He says her demeanour changed and she started to swear at him and tell him to “f*** off.”

Remember the Hull Daily Mail reporting hasn't been that full or accurate, I wasn't trying to cast any judgement simply commenting on what I had read.
From the link below,

Libby Squire murder trial: Student 'seen sobbing in street'

"When he refused her request for a hug, she began swearing at him and, after about 10 minutes, the men decided to "give up" attempts to help."

Also this mirror link

Libby Squire seen 'crying and screaming' on final night out before her murder

"One minute she was all right and the next swearing,” he said and at one point she asked him to give her a hug, when he declined she started swearing again."

 

[Via Marple]

Just to add to the tides discussion... you don't need to google or watch the evening news to get the info. You just need an app with tide forecast. Such as this one which may appear to be another weather app...
(It looks like a popular app on Android, and developed in Czech Rep.)

 

[mrjitty]

I am really keen to get some clarity on the timing from summing up. Now that evidence has been given, the prosecution can provide clarity on how it believes the evidence can be interpreted. Unlike cases where we have a video link, I feel like we have only scraps of information, so we don't really know how the prosecution say this may have happened

 

[Newthoughts]

To be fair you just done a pretty good summing up for the prosecution there but with respect its not completely impartial to the facts.

The court did hear that at some point Libby had expressed an idea of suicide by drowning in a river?

The affection (apparently) shown to PR wasn't completely out of character for her that night, according to another witness she was asking them to lie down with her and hug her and became verbally abusive when they refused.
Her behaviour or thoughts on that night cannot really be logically explained because she quite clearly wasn't thinking straight in terms of logical rational behaviour, might she not have simply gone home initially when she had the chance if that was the case?

You are also missing out the option that perhaps she could have gone into the river accidentally (by misadventure) not intentionally or with suicidal tendencies, but indeed by her own hand/legs.

I'm predominantly playing the devils advocate position here, I do believe he was ultimately responsible but its only "fair" to put the facts together as they actually were presented.

Ok to counter devil's advocate

For point one - she had been discharged by the mental health services as requiring no further follow ups or action. Her friends had given evidence that she was happy and joking at a party that night. None had any reason to believe there was anything amiss in the period running up to it. She had contacted her long term boyfriend at 10.30 that night. She had discussed the following days lecture with a fellow philosophy student. She was seen by several witnesses to be very drunk and by an expert to be hypothermic. Nobody thought her suicidal.

As her friends had no reason to lie we can assume they are telling the truth. Her behaviour was typical of a drunken hypothermic person therefore no other factors can be reasonable assumed.

For point two her behaviour changes alarmingly with PR who has lied throughout this. But even if he was correct several witnesses and an expert have stated she was extremely vulnerable and certainly not capable of consent. Anyone of the men she came across - including the students - could have raped her and chose not to.

We don't know the full context of her earlier interactions so they could have been to get warm

Last point - we were told by the expert her body temperature would mean she would find it difficult to run and we saw she was struggling to walk on the street.

PR takes her to a park and raped her

If he hasn't taken her close to the river to do this she then has to to walk to it herself. If her adrenaline kicked which I'm not sure if would if hypothermic - she head to the houses not in the opposite direction. Bang on a door

If adrenaline hasn't kicked in and shes not near the river she has to get there herself. The terrain is rough. It's location she doesn't know (unlike PR). She avoids a massive pond. She doesn't turn and head for houses. She manages not to lose her pants and jacket there but keeps them safe losing until after she's fallen in. She doesn't snag clothing on the many brambles the police removed.. She would have to walk uphill at some points.

If on the other hand he has taken her close to the river the problems with timing disappear. It wouldn't take much more time to put her in a river.

In short either she walks all thru the park after the rape away from housing without losing the pants she's carrying on the way or leaving any evidence such as a lost shoe. Or he walks thru the park

So if the timing goes what else to consider.

Why did PR take her to that point to rape her in the park when he could have raped her in the Endsleigh centre or his warm car. His uncontrollable urges were pretty controlled in that respect.

Why did PR go to the park earlier at 9.45 pm. And return at 2.24 am.

Why did he prowl around the student area afterwards?

Why did he feel secure enough to fill a condom with semen after his second prowl around - knowing that she would report him and be a witness to location and description. A rape would be taken more seriously then his previous 'silly' crimes and with his DNA already on their database he'd be in big trouble?

I must admit his lack of empathy is quite chilling and is a psychopathic trait. His later prowling is also chilling

 

[Chambo1994]

Just to add to the tides discussion... you don't need to google or watch the evening news to get the info. You just need an app with tide forecast. Such as this one which may appear to be another weather app...
(It looks like a popular app on Android, and developed in Czech Rep.)

<modsnip>

If he had done any research on tide times, had tide apps, been a tide expert or the multiple other theories that keep being posted on here we’d be told by the prosecution as it would be a crucial piece of evidence.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Do we know if the only CCTV that captured the arrival and departure of PR's car only from the yeast factory or was there also one on Beresford Avenue (or maybe Claremont) too? Have we seen the footage from either of these?

Also as far as I can see the prosecution didn't present any evidence of PR being in the park like footprints or fingerprints. Or am I wrong?

No you are correct, we haven’t heard of any evidence placing him inside the park.
Having thought the CCTV from the yeast factory showed the car arriving- and then searching and searching for something to confirm that- I couldn’t find anything. I’m not sure what was captured on the yeast factory, or which CCTV showed them arriving and leaving the park (I now think it was just a street camera caught them arriving very close to where they parked up)

 

[Chambo1994]

Is it possible that the translator is fine but PR is not particularly articulate?

I’ve always wondered how the translators are governed in court. Like, is there another translator there for the prosecution who could verify what he/she is saying?

For example, what’s stopping a translator changing wording to make it sound better for PR if he says something in his native tongue that wouldn’t come across well to the jury?

 

[Sooty]

Whilst I don’t think she committed suicide personally, there may be others considering this still. @Newthoughts quite rightly says she had been discharged from CAMHS, however there is testimony suggesting she was still struggling.

her mother stated at the trial that the last time she had self harmed was eight months prior to her death (so whilst at uni) and that she would regularly drink to the point of being sick.

Her boyfriend, Connor, said:

I do not think she was suicidal. She didn’t want to die. She made attempts but would immediately alert someone. I did try to talk to her but it was very difficult for her. As far as I know she has not harmed herself for the last seven months. We made an agreement I would stop smoking and she would stop hurting herself and as far as I know she kept to her side of the agreement.”