UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21

[stephaniejanes]

Respectfully, I don't agree with your point of view but it is always interesting to read different opinions.

I think it is unusual for someone not to take their phone with them. You dont need to be a genius to know that your mobile phone will place you in certain locations at certain times (you just need to watch a bit of TV). For me, this more than suggests premeditation.

Also, carrying condoms with him tells us that he was preplanning his crimes generally.

So I believe he did pre plan this to an extent. That in itself obviously isnt needed for a murder conviction anyway - as per previous posts re intent/murder etc. But I think it tells us more about him.

He has the presence of mind to adapt his lies to work in with the prosecution evidence too. Today, he says Libby was screaming at the time screams were heard for instance. I dont personally think he is stupid, but I do think he is a very dangerous predator and a natural born liar, if not a very good one.

JMO

I agree. I think he planned it, even if vaguely. Just because you plan something doesn't make you intelligent.

 

[HullGirl72]

Agree, the sexual assault itself was probably really quick. The prosecution raised the point he "finished" when pleasuring himself later that night within seconds... so you're probably looking at him having 6+ mins to do the travel back and forth from car to river. Unsure we will ever truly know where the attack happened, I tend to think within the park.

I fully agree
He is a sexual deviant through his own admission and gets his kicks from frightening girls.
This was his ultimate fantasy.
It would have been mere seconds.
To think he had a just few seconds pleasure for potentially such a lengthy sentence.
It’s bizarre

 

[wilkela]

Being thick doesn't mean he didn't plan it. Plans don't have to be brilliant and I'm sure there are lots of thick murderers in prison.

His plan could be as simple as here's a dark park with a river. Heres a vulnerable girl. I will take her to my car then drive without hesitation to the dark park with the river because afterwards I can put her in the river.

No plan would be here's a vulnerable girl standing at the entrance to a dark housing development I will attack her here but I really don't know what to do after

Even then scenario two could still be deemed murder I think.

what you described it is planning next step when opportunity arises
but it is something different when you leaving house with plan in your head "tonight I will find woman and I will rape her and then I will put her body in the river at 2:30 when tide rise "
he isn't that sophisticated ,he went out watching people through the window and masturbate on front pretty girls ,then he spotted Libby and decided use her but he didn't plan it it just happened

someone asked why I think it is impossible he raped ,killed and disposed her body in that short time,
I think I answered this question before, she didn't have any deadly injury, he didn't hit her with something heavy ,he didn't stabbed her ,suffocate someone takes more than 1min ,person can lose consciousness but not be killed in seconds plus she was screaming(apparently for few minutes) so she wasn't suffocated
if she would run from him, fight with him for her life there would be some evidence on the ground, blood ,hair mess on the ground in general - I didn't hear anything about it (yet)
there was dark ,even you know place it is completely different perception in the dark, running there in darkness with body over shoulders wouldn't be easy ,I bet he will probably fell few times ,slip ,stumble over wood, iced mud ,it wasn't straight easy path.
I just don't see how he could do this especially when he just decided rape her because he had opportunity not because he planned this

 

[CoverMeCagney]

It can take just seconds for someone to become unconscious during strangulation, but minutes for them to actually die.

This might fit with the coroners suggestion that Libby didn’t “fully” drown, which the autopsy would show if she fell in herself fully conscious.

 

[Corneileus]

me too
I think he is just thick
today trial just showed he didn't plan anything it was just impulse
I still think 7,5min is very short time to rape kill and dispose body ,especially when we taking about someone that primitive like PR
People who planning attack usually carry weapon with them (hammer, knife ,use heavy stones to silience they victim etc) he didn't plan it ,he just raped and escaped and then was thinking what next ,he came back but not because he knew about tide but because he is just simple stupid

<modsnip> i feel the timescales are next to impossible. he raped her but unless the timescales are wrong...i cant see it all fitting together. i think another party took advantage after pawel left.

 

[HullGirl72]

<modsnip> i feel the timescales are next to impossible. he raped her but unless the timescales are wrong...i cant see it all fitting together. i think another party took advantage after pawel left.

That would be horrific luck.
But isn’t he still liable if he left her in the park having raped her, vulnerable like that?
Isn’t that tantamount to contributing to her death?

 

[Dotta]

i think many of my posts have been deleted but i fully expected this...off trial topic. i feel the timescales are next to impossible. he raped her but unless the timescales are wrong...i cant see it all fitting together. i think another party took advantage after pawel left.

That's exactly what I think and wrote earlier - PR started and sb else finished.

 

[HullGirl72]

what you described it is planning next step when opportunity arises
but it is something different when you leaving house with plan in your head "tonight I will find woman and I will rape her and then I will put her body in the river at 2:30 when tide rise "
he isn't that sophisticated ,he went out watching people through the window and masturbate on front pretty girls ,then he spotted Libby and decided use her but he didn't plan it it just happened

someone asked why I think it is impossible he raped ,killed and disposed her body in that short time,
I think I answered this question before, she didn't have any deadly injury, he didn't hit her with something heavy ,he didn't stabbed her ,suffocate someone takes more than 1min ,person can lose consciousness but not be killed in seconds plus she was screaming(apparently for few minutes) so she wasn't suffocated
if she would run from him, fight with him for her life there would be some evidence on the ground, blood ,hair mess on the ground in general - I didn't hear anything about it (yet)
there was dark ,even you know place it is completely different perception in the dark, running there in darkness with body over shoulders wouldn't be easy ,I bet he will probably fell few times ,slip ,stumble over wood, iced mud ,it wasn't straight easy path.
I just don't see how he could do this especially when he just decided rape her because he had opportunity not because he planned this

So after she’s ran from his car and she’s confused, in shock and debilitated because of the onset of hypothermia, she’s screaming and trying to get away, in which direction she doesn’t know, just AWAY from him, she couldn’t have ended up much nearer the river? Then he’s then caught her, raped her, made her unconscious by putting his hand over her nose and mouth to stifle her screams, then got her in the river?

 

[Ruthbullock]

Lots of mine have also been deleted and only one was off topic. I’ve been and eaten and found it quite hard to follow what’s been said since the snips- but here’s another thing that disappoints me about the prosecutions questioning- aside from the underwear part- the phone. There is no proof he didn’t take his phone and that he left it at home- we are now discussing it as a point in case, of well would he not have needed a torch etc. I know some (not so many now, but lots a few years ago) who have small data packages so whilst they have their phone with them just in case- everything is switched off when away from a building with WiFi and I mean everything is turned off- they didn’t get messages, texts, phone calls etc. I didn’t read that he agreed he didn’t have his phone with him- I’m hoping he said he didn’t, otherwise it’s a pointless digression from the actual case.

 

[wilkela]

It can take just seconds for someone to become unconscious during strangulation, but minutes for them to actually die.

This might fit with the coroners suggestion that Libby didn’t “fully” drown, which the autopsy would show if she fell in herself fully conscious.

I think it doesn't matter if you conscious or not your body would show the same signs of drowning ,even you are unconscious you still breathing

 

[Corneileus]

In what way do you think it's too short? Genuine question cos I'm interested in why people think this.

His stories are definitely lies, the alternatives seem unlikely and we're running out of options.

il say why...go to google earth and measure the distances. have a good look. then imagine that place in complete darkness. 7.5 minutes...nope no way. have a look for yourself. after surveying several times youd have to be in training for that timescale to work, its just too short a time it really is. i dont like it but it is

 

[Chambo1994]

<modsnip> i feel the timescales are next to impossible. he raped her but unless the timescales are wrong...i cant see it all fitting together. i think another party took advantage after pawel left.

<modsnip>

But in all seriousness, I don’t think anyone could be involved, I think it’s a two way street in which either he killed her or she dies of her own devices (suicide or accident)

Im sure during the search investigation and enquiries they’d have details of everyone who entered and exited that park within the entire evening/night.

 

[catgreen]

That's exactly what I think and wrote earlier - PR started and sb else finished.

So what is your theory for why he returned the third time? And why did he leave his phone at home each time?

 

[tigerowl]

I understand that
But the police have charged him with murder so they can’t have a problem with timings.

I understand that too - but as I have said, what evidence has been presented to say why they believe he murdered her? I may have missed this so happy to be proved wrong.

I know this park well, Corneileus has literally walked it within the last 24 hours and we are both dubious that the events could take place in 7.5 mins.

Please do not misconstrue that I do not believe he is responsible for Libby coming to her death. He took a vulnerable person to a remote area and raped her. She wouldn't have been there if it wasn't for him and wouldn't have come to harm. But I do not see anything that evidences he murdered her.

 

[HullGirl72]

<modsnip>. i feel the timescales are next to impossible. he raped her but unless the timescales are wrong...i cant see it all fitting together. i think another party took advantage after pawel left.

If someone else had raped her after PR wouldn’t their dna be in her too?
If they used a condom there’d be evidence of spermicide in the findings.
This wasn’t mentioned.
If they didn’t rape her they just fancied throwing her in the river, just for kicks, despite knowing they could face 25 years for doing so?

 

[astheworldfallsdown]

That's exactly what I think and wrote earlier - PR started and sb else finished.

Who though? Someone he knew and sent to finish her off? Or a random who happened upon her and decided to just throw her in the river? JMO

 

[wilkela]

So after she’s ran from his car and she’s confused, in shock and debilitated because of the onset of hypothermia, she’s screaming and trying to get away, in which direction she doesn’t know, just AWAY from him, she couldn’t have ended up much nearer the river? Then he’s then caught her, raped her, made her unconscious by putting his hand over her nose and mouth to stifle her screams, then got her in the river?

I don't think so she ran from him I think she wasn't able run
I think she could lose consciousness if he put hand over her mouth to keep her quiet and he probably left her unconscious
when she woke up she could be confused and didn't know where she is and where she is going(because she was hypothermic ,drunk) disorientated in dark took wrong direction and ended in the river

 

[Dotta]

Who though? Someone he knew and sent to finish her off? Or a random who happened upon her and decided to just throw her in the river? JMO

Who knows what creeps meet there at night? Sb mentioned here this is a "dogging site".

 

[HullGirl72]

I don't think so she ran from him I think she wasn't able run
I think she could lose consciousness if he put hand over her mouth to keep her quiet and he probably left her unconscious
when she woke up she could be confused and didn't know where she is and where she is going(because she was hypothermic ,drunk) disorientated in dark took wrong direction and ended in the river

So if he didn’t murder her, but left her there to potentially die, knowing how vulnerable she was, is that not murder?
He said he drove off immediately after sex and she was shouting for him to come back. But he left her there in that state
That in itself is disgusting.

 

[HullGirl72]

Who knows what creeps meet there at night? Sb mentioned here this is a "dogging site".

He also said not in January but in warmer months.
It was freezing that night and icy snow on the ground.