UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #22

[Sarahjo]

Time?

Didn't think he'd need to?

He only uses condoms when there an isn't an audience to scare and just fills them to leave as a calling card?

I'd go with 2 and 3 in that list.

I think he's ready to escalate (early trip to the park that night and drone footage - the prosecutor said it'd be a quiet spot that night and I see no reason to disbelieve him). Libby the the first 'lone' vulnerable woman he's come across at that point in his offending?

And maybe time. With a condom on and just bollards to look at he took seconds. We've heard he didn't even remove her pants.

He doesn't seem to have an usual thing or MO.

He ejaculates on doors and windows when women can see him. Doesn't use a condom when can be seen- MO one

Condoms are usually left when the women haven't been there to see him - for example after thefts - MO two

Breaks into houses and steals sexual personal items - MO three.

Every rapist and murderer has a first time.

Personally the only reason I can see to use the condom when them second woman he stalks that night doesn't materialise is to leave somewhere. It's unlikely any evidence would have been found there if he hadn't used and lost it.

All just my opinions

Yeah, exactly, everyone who escalates has to have a first victim they escalate with an looks like poor Libby was his, but my only thinking is, does he escalate to rape AND murder, would it not just be rape as there’s a chance he could get away with that, victim can’t remember, doesn’t report it etc so he then has a chance to do it again another time, but murder is a whole different story, that won’t go unreported and so he would have to lay low with the police all over the place, no chance to even commit his usual offences.. I don’t know, I’m just struggling with a pre meditated or even deliberate murder...he left her in a state which caused her death though but unfortunately I don’t think that can be classed as murder.. all my opinion..

 

[tigerowl]

Re his third visit to ORPF. I don't think it is unusual in line with his other behaviour. But, unlike many of you, I don't think he murdered Libby, so my view is he was just in his 'normal' offending pattern.

I just think he was still sexually heightened and just went back to remind himself of what he had done. He has form of regularly attending the same areas, even stalking the same streets, houses and women repeatedly - it must give him part of his kick. To me it fits with all of his previous behaviour that he would go back to his scene and relive his experience or look for someone else on the off chance to attack. When there was no one there to perv over he returned straight back to his other haunts.

He wasn't thinking the police would be there because they have never been anywhere else he had been repeatedly offending. Why would they be here on this occasion?

Edited for spelling

 

[Joolz1975]

I wonder (assuming there is some sort of 'specialist' sexual activity in ORPF) if he uses his drone to do his voyeuristic stuff.

I doubt it. In the day it would be too obvious and at night the night vision somewhere like that would be pretty poor. Besides to do any voyeuristic stuff would have to get in pretty low and drones are such an obvious sound buzzing away..

I have one of the quieter DJI drones and even as high as 80m you can hear a faint buzz so any lower than that would be really obvious I think.

 

[Vera_dci]

I dont believe murder was premeditated either. I think rape was as he purposely took libby to a secluded area and that is premeditated. Many rapists are opportunistic, so even if he didn't plan to rape that night, when the opportunity arose he took it. I think he suffocated libby to stop her screaming and that is murder. Yes, he has returned to previous offence locations but none have been reported to be in the same evening. There was a reason for his return visit and I strongly believe it was not to relive an offence.

 

[Vermont24]

I doubt it. In the day it would be too obvious and at night the night vision somewhere like that would be pretty poor. Besides to do any voyeuristic stuff would have to get in pretty low and drones are such an obvious sound buzzing away..

I have one of the quieter DJI drones and even as high as 80m you can hear a faint buzz so any lower than that would be really obvious I think.

Agreed. I don't think the drone is related to his offending, and I suspect this would've been discussed at length in court if it were. Sure, he flew it over the park, and as websleuthers we'd love that to have some significance given what happened shortly afterwards. However, it's the largest area of open space close to where he lives. Being a Newland resident, I'd head there too if I had a drone.

I think it's easy to get caught up and imagine that every facet of a person's life is part and parcel of their offending. Some things are just innocuous. With this case, it seems like the simplest explanation has more often than not been the correct one.

 

[JosieJo]

I wonder (assuming there is some sort of 'specialist' sexual activity in ORPF) if he uses his drone to do his voyeuristic stuff.

I agree ...I dont think for a minute he was using a drone to plan a murder or rape

A drone for him would be a toy for voyeurism from a distance

I've seen nothing that indicates he was planning to up his level of crime...not saying he would not at some point.

No Internet searches found ...most of these people who dream of rape or murder will be into extreme porn of rape or death

No previous violence towards women (with his hands i mean )

 

[NorthernSoul]

Lurker and occasional commenter here! Just posting my opinion. I have been touched by this case and have so much sympathy with Libby's family and what they are having to endure and I have been following all of your comments.
I think it is inevitable PR will be found guilty of rape. The evidence is all there. Re the murder charge I do personally feel that probably PR is guilty.
However I do not feel that the evidence we have had access to so far is strong enough for a conviction. Libby was intoxicated and her behaviour was erratic. She went in the wrong direction from her house and later went to a different house where she lost her keys (was she trying to open the door thinking it was her house?). She was unable to control her movements, ended up on the floor more than once and had injured herself. Her speech was affected so that people could not understand her and she was swinging from being affectionate one moment and asking for hugs to screaming and swearing. This has all been reported by witnesses.
Once the two reach the park we do not know what happened except that at some point intercourse took place which was rape as Libby could not have consented in her condition. I cannot even begin to imagine how Libby would feel if she was still conscious after this but surely she would have been even more traumatised and distraught. Even if PR had gone, she could not know that. Her instinct could have been to get as far away from him as possible and the last place she saw him could have been at the gates. I do believe it is theoretically possible that she just ran screaming and tragically fell into the river, considering her lack of awareness of her surroundings earlier. She was not thinking logically, we know that. It's also even possible she deliberately went into the river to hide or try to cross. The forensics experts have made it clear that they are unwilling to reach any definitive conclusion on whether Libby drowned and she could have succumbed to hypothermia rather than drowning while in the river.
I am not saying I am convinced this happened; I am saying we can't say for sure it didn't happen. We can only have an opinion and that is not hard evidence. So for me I feel the jury need more evidence which it is possible they do have.

 

[Cherwell]

Re his third visit to ORPF .........
.......... He wasn't thinking the police would be there because they have never been anywhere else he had been repeatedly offending. Why would they be here on this occasion?

Because someone might have reported the screams?

 

[JosieJo]

Yeah, exactly, everyone who escalates has to have a first victim they escalate with an looks like poor Libby was his, but my only thinking is, does he escalate to rape AND murder, would it not just be rape as there’s a chance he could get away with that, victim can’t remember, doesn’t report it etc so he then has a chance to do it again another time, but murder is a whole different story, that won’t go unreported and so he would have to lay low with the police all over the place, no chance to even commit his usual offences.. I don’t know, I’m just struggling with a pre meditated or even deliberate murder...he left her in a state which caused her death though but unfortunately I don’t think that can be classed as murder.. all my opinion..

I agree..rape was his escalation...he saw an "opportunity" (horrible term in this case) and took it ...whether that lead to suffocation whilst silencing her or not i dont know

I do not think he killed her for sexual pleasure
I do not think he even had time to think I must kill her because I've left DNA ..plus I think he would be stupid enough to think she would be too drunk to report it ..or if she did he could do what thousands do every year ..say it was consensual.

 

[bos]

Just picking up here that Sam Alford said he saw a man in light trousers. This seems to have been mistranscribed in later mentions as "tight" trousers. I'm sure the former is the correct version as looking out at night you would be likely to distinguish whether the man's trousers were dark or light - but not so much the fit!

Do you have a link to the original quoted statement?

 

[Vermont24]

Because someone might have reported the screams?

I think the prosecution made a really compelling point in suggesting that PR wouldn't have returned a third time if he thought there was any chance that LS would be alive/conscious and able to act on what had happened during the previous visit. If he had been genuinely concerned and looking for her, I think it's reasonable to expect he would spend longer in the area than he did. It was a targeted visit - a specific task in a specific location.

 

[Newthoughts]

Yeah, exactly, everyone who escalates has to have a first victim they escalate with an looks like poor Libby was his, but my only thinking is, does he escalate to rape AND murder, would it not just be rape as there’s a chance he could get away with that, victim can’t remember, doesn’t report it etc so he then has a chance to do it again another time, but murder is a whole different story, that won’t go unreported and so he would have to lay low with the police all over the place, no chance to even commit his usual offences.. I don’t know, I’m just struggling with a pre meditated or even deliberate murder...he left her in a state which caused her death though but unfortunately I don’t think that can be classed as murder.. all my opinion..

IMO the evidence as a whole says he did escalate to both.

If an act is violent and you reasonably know it could result in death and you could stop that is enough for murder. And if you deliberately take someone to a spot where you could dispose of them if looks even worse

 

[Vera_dci]

Agreed, specifically him ripping off letter boxes from a door of a women who he had offended against for 18months. That's a violent act in my opinion.

 

[Newthoughts]

Re his third visit to ORPF. I don't think it is unusual in line with his other behaviour. But, unlike many of you, I don't think he murdered Libby, so my view is he was just in his 'normal' offending pattern.

I just think he was still sexually heightened and just went back to remind himself of what he had done. He has form of regularly attending the same areas, even stalking the same streets, houses and women repeatedly - it must give him part of his kick. To me it fits with all of his previous behaviour that he would go back to his scene and relive his experience or look for someone else on the off chance to attack. When there was no one there to perv over he returned straight back to his other haunts.

He wasn't thinking the police would be there because they have never been anywhere else he had been repeatedly offending. Why would they be here on this occasion?

Edited for spelling

Why would they be there? Because he's just raped somebody who by then would have reported it?

 

[tigerowl]

Because someone might have reported the screams?

I doubt he considered the screams. He thought he had taken her to a remote area where her screams would be unlikely to be heard. She didn't scream a lot either by the reports of the witnesses so he may have thought them inconsequential anyway. But really, I doubt he registered it. Too caught up in his own mind.

 

[Vera_dci]

Why would they be there? Because he's just raped somebody who by then would have reported it?

Returning in his car that coukd be easily identified by a victim, even if it was just the colour. Additionally, why cruise around the streets after, if there was a possibility that libby had reported him and police would be alerted.

 

[JosieJo]

I think the prosecution made a really compelling point in suggesting that PR wouldn't have returned a third time if he thought there was any chance that LS would be alive/conscious and able to act on what had happened during the previous visit. If he had been genuinely concerned and looking for her, I think it's reasonable to expect he would spend longer in the area than he did. It was a targeted visit - a specific task in a specific location.

I'm torn with this ....if he returned to put her in the river.. yes ..but then stuck on it being tight in just over 4min

If not something so vital I think he would have avoided the area he was aware of cameras and how multiple visits would look

Then we have the fact he carries on his usual "hobby" ...if he had just killed for the first time im not sure he would be round the area risking his normal activities ...if his "problem" was so compelling he could have gone to a slightly different area

Im Torn on the 3rd visit

 

[tigerowl]

Why would they be there? Because he's just raped somebody who by then would have reported it?

I'm not sure what the police force is like where you are, but there is no way Humberside police would have the manpower to have a strong presence in a park two hours after a drunk woman has alleged a rape in the middle of the night. They would have probably done a patrol to see if anyone was hanging around, but the likelihood is, she would still be sitting in the station waiting to give her statement at that point.

 

[Joolz1975]

I'm not sure what the police force is like where you are, but there is no way Humberside police would have the manpower to have a strong presence in a park two hours after a drunk woman has alleged a rape in the middle of the night. They would have probably done a patrol to see if anyone was hanging around, but the likelihood is, she would still be sitting in the station waiting to give her statement at that point.

Not sure on this one! A violent rape and I would say the police would be all over it in a very short time frame. I am just judging this on local experience though based on a rape near where I live, the police where swarming around in minutes with the helicopter and dog unit also.

 

[Newthoughts]

I agree..rape was his escalation...he saw an "opportunity" (horrible term in this case) and took it ...whether that lead to suffocation whilst silencing her or not i dont know

I do not think he killed her for sexual pleasure
I do not think he even had time to think I must kill her because I've left DNA ..plus I think he would be stupid enough to think she would be too drunk to report it ..or if she did he could do what thousands do every year ..say it was consensual.

For murder he Just had to have intent to cause serious harm or injury combined with death as a result. That is satisfied.