UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #22

[Newthoughts]

Can someone confirm if the public masturbation incident occurred after the 2nd or 3rd visit to the park?

Third. Goes home after second visit. Has bath, gets changed, washes clothes, watches some .

Returns to park at 2.24. leaves after 2.30. prowls student area. Unsuccessfully stalks another woman then masturbates into condom which he loses.

 

[Sooty]

Has CCTV picked up anyone else entering the park - not mentioned. I'm sure the defence would be all over it of they had. So again less likely someone else. Other pieced of evidence place PR there - increases likelihood it's him.

snipped by me.

1)CCTV hasn’t picked up PR entering the park.

2) and what other evidence has placed him there?

 

[Cherwell]

I know this is obvious but we have three sides to this story in regards to the screams. Screams were heard by all three sides but at different times. This confirms someone is lying and I would bet the liar is PR!
Can someone remind me, wasn’t there two witnesses from the nearby street? Two different households who heard screaming at 12:30? That would make it even more confusing because I can’t understand why the guy from the house on Oak Road didn’t hear it.

"The guy from the house on Oak Road" is Sam Alford.
The other two scream witnesses are a couple from a house in Claremont Avenue. Two witnesses but in the same house.

 

[Newthoughts]

snipped by me.

1)CCTV hasn’t picked up PR entering the park.

2) and what other evidence has placed him there?

Why does the prosecution say it does?

Car picked up parking there

Yeast factory

Sam Alford description of man seen

His own testimony

 

[Newthoughts]

Screaming doesn't necessarily indicate attack, it's distress. Libby could have been screaming for someone to help her, severely disorientated and hampered by numb feet in the snow.

Indeed. But what is more likely in those circumstances - alone in dark park with rapist

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Version 5: Defence statement. This was written on February 5, 2020 and was given to the court in a statement. Relowicz cannot recall this but it says that as he was giving Libby a lift she "gently" threw her underwear at him.

The statement says: “When he parked up she got out and fell over and when he went to help her up they had sex" and she walked away from Oak Road holding her underwear.


Relowicz now says this is a lie and the fourth version, the one he has told to the jury, is true.

He said he lied because he "needed time to accept" his problems and he did not want his wife to know he had cheated.

The trial continues.
Every word Pawel Relowicz said in Libby Squire murder trial

 

[Sooty]

Why does the prosecution say it does?

Car picked up parking there

Yeast factory

Sam Alford description of man seen

His own testimony

do you have Link for what exactly the prosecution said?

the cctv we have seen (including yeast factory) does not show him entering the park.

He has never said he entered the park to my knowledge. Perhaps you can show me where he has said this if I am wrong.

Mr Alford testimony we have gone over today and it is not without dispute - certainly time wise if nothing else.


I know it looks like I’m picking holes, I don’t mean to appear so critical - but I do think it’s important and necessary that fundamental evidence is presented correctly and examined. My apologies if this causes frustration in turn.

edited to moderate tone!

 

[Emerald1328]

Third. Goes home after second visit. Has bath, gets changed, washes clothes, watches some .

Returns to park at 2.24. leaves after 2.30. prowls student area. Unsuccessfully stalks another woman then masturbates into condom which he loses.

Thank you! Knowing that, coupled with the witnesses hearing screams, makes me wonder if this was the sequence of events.

1. PR and Libby arrive at the park. She possibly realizes she is in danger and runs out of the car.

2. PR chases her and accosts her near the river.

3. He rapes her, which is when the first witness hears the screams and leaves, with her left alive there.

4. The second set of witnesses hear screams about 10 (?) minutes later. This is Libby trying to get someone’s attention to help her.

5. In between this time and his 3rd visit to the park, she succumbs to either injuries or hyperthermia.

6. PR comes back to see if she’s still alive. He finds that she’s not and since he raped her near the river, he puts her in it and leaves.

7. Knowing he had just killed someone, he gets excited (despite what he/the defense said, his past actions were aggressive and threatening and I don’t for a second believe he wasn’t aware of that) and has to “relieve” himself again.

All of the above is IMO, I’m not stating it as fact, but it’s the most likely scenario I can come up with, working with the timeframes and the witnesses hearing the screams at different times.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

 

[Newthoughts]

do you have Link for what exactly the prosecution said?

the cctv we have seen (including yeast factory) does not show him entering the park.

He has never said he entered the park to my knowledge. Perhaps you can show me where he has said this if I am wrong.

Mr Alford testimony we have gone over today and it is not without dispute - certainly time wise if nothing else.


I know it looks like I’m picking holes, I don’t mean to appear so critical - but I do think it’s important and necessary that fundamental evidence is presented correctly and examined. My apologies if this causes frustration in turn.

edited to moderate tone!

The links to the prosecution are easy for find.

We have not seen all the yeast factory CCTV nor had it explained to us so only go with what we've heard and what is in the public domain. If you have seen detailed images plus whatever explanations jury has seen I apologise.

Sam Alford sees a man leaving the park after screams. There is no real issue with timing. The description seems pretty close to what we've seen of PR. Who do you think this is exactly?

I don't wish to appear critical either but it is important that ALL the evidence is considered to give a whole picture. Including the fact that PR is a liar. That is important as both PR AND Libby deserve a fair trial.

Also edited for tone.

 

[lo so]

Did they mention where PR stopped/parked on the first trip to the park and if he actually went into the park that time?

 

[Sooty]

The links to the prosecution are easy for find.

We have not seen all the yeast factory CCTV nor had it explained to us so only go with what we've heard and what is in the public domain. If you have seen detailed images plus whatever explanations jury has seen I apologise.

Sam Alford sees a man leaving the park after screams. There is no real issue with timing. The description seems pretty close to what we've seen of PR. Who do you think this is exactly?

I don't wish to appear critical either but it is important that ALL the evidence is considered to give a whole picture. Including the fact that PR is a liar. That is important as both PR AND Libby deserve a fair trial.

Also edited for tone.

I conclude - There is yet to be seen (by us at least ) any solid evidence that places him in the park. MOO

 

[Newthoughts]

Thank you! Knowing that, coupled with the witnesses hearing screams, makes me wonder if this was the sequence of events.

1. PR and Libby arrive at the park. She possibly realizes she is in danger and runs out of the car.

2. PR chases her and accosts her near the river.

3. He rapes her, which is when the first witness hears the screams and leaves, with her left alive there.

4. The second set of witnesses hear screams about 10 (?) minutes later. This is Libby trying to get someone’s attention to help her.

5. In between this time and his 3rd visit to the park, she succumbs to either injuries or hyperthermia.

6. PR comes back to see if she’s still alive. He finds that she’s not and since he raped her near the river, he puts her in it and leaves.

7. Knowing he had just killed someone, he gets excited (despite what he/the defense said, his past actions were aggressive and threatening and I don’t for a second believe he wasn’t aware of that) and has to “relieve” himself again.

All of the above is IMO, I’m not stating it as fact, but it’s the most likely scenario I can come up with, working with the timeframes and the witnesses hearing the screams at different times.

Good post.

The problem I have with the screams is that both Alford and the other two witnesses hear a very similar set of screams coming from a very similar location - by the pond. Yet neither hears two sets of screams. That makes me query timing. The Alford set is accompanied by a visual sighting of a man walking away from them

 

[Newthoughts]

I conclude - There is yet to be seen (by us at least ) any solid evidence that places him in the park. MOO

Us? What do you mean us?

Who does Sam Alford see? What detailed analysis of the yeast factory CCTV have you seen?

Where is your evidence placing Libby in the park?

 

[Winterbells]

I have been going back and forth with this. Glad you were brave and threw it out here. MOO

I've been saying this for days. It's very possible, in my book, that this is what he did. He killed, then, in a matter of a second or two, raped Libby. Although not possible to prove, for me, that makes the two crimes inextricably linked. If he's guity of one, then he's guilty of the other. All of his crimes involve a sick twist.

 

[Tortoise]

Indeed. But what is more likely in those circumstances - alone in dark park with rapist

It depends what the time was.

We've both heard the same evidence and based on that there is not enough, from my point of view, to decide that Libby was murdered.

 

[Newthoughts]

It depends what the time was.

We've both heard the same evidence and based on that there is not enough, from my point of view, to decide that Libby was murdered.

And what do you think happened to her? Genuine question.

 

[Newthoughts]

I've been saying this for days. It's very possible, in my book, that this is what he did. He killed, then, in a matter of a second or two, raped Libby. Although not possible to prove, for me, that makes the two crimes inextricably linked. If he's guity of one, then he's guilty of the other. All of his crimes involve a sick twist.

Looking at the definition of murder 'the intention to cause serious harm or injury that results in a death - does allow that a violent act like a rape is sufficient.

It also adds in things like intent to kill not being necessary.

And that if a victim tries to escape and dies as a result that also counts as murder.

And goes so far as to still allow murder if mistakes are made in subsequent medical treatments.

Some help from a legal person would be better

 

[tigerowl]

I would not like to be on that jury if all they have seen is what we have seen.

As it is, I agree @Tortoise - there is not enough evidence in the public domain to say he murdered her. I would not be able to say guilty.

I think from what we have seen, he raped her at the park and left her there. I think the witnessed screams were heard after the event. Libby panicked and disorientated and in a state got herself in the river. MOO.

 

[Tortoise]

And what do you think happened to her? Genuine question.

I think there is a strong possibility that she fell over into the water, on her own.