UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #23

[bos]

I can’t help but wonder if the police could have done an identity parade for Sam Alford if the press hadn’t put PR’s name and picture into the public domain.

I guess they might have & he couldn’t identify PR but since PR was arrested on the evening of 6th Feb & his ID was public on the 7th I’m doubtful.

I’m also curious whether it was spider cam that alerted police to PR & if so why his clothing wasn’t seized at the time of his arrest (IIRC they said it was the 10th or 11th Feb when for clothing evidence)

 

[JosieJo]

- The witness lied about seeing a man in the park

- The witness saw PR in the park

- The witness saw another, unidentified male in the park who would be a vital witness.

Take your pick. I think a lot of people also get stuck on the “accidental drowning” side of things. It’s very easy to look at that and say yeah it’s very possible that happened, but what they keep missing is why was she even near the river to begin with? You just do not walk in there by accident and go all the way across and stumble in to the river.

Not if you are not confused , wandering around and vulnerable to misadventure no ...not that I think she wandered there from the park gates myself but its not impossible or "so unlikely" I'd dismiss it completely

 

[Winterbells]

No it is not absolutely impossible but we're looking at things that are reasonable and likely.

I mean you could argue Libby was abducted by aliens and placed in the river - it's not likely and it's not reasonable.

But this is a strawman argument. @tigerowl was offering reasonable explanations for why a random bloke might be in the park that night, not reasonable grounds to think that random bloke murdered Libby.

 

[Steve2021]

Duplicate post - deleted

 

[Steve2021]

I don't think @Newthoughts was seriously putting forward alien abduction as a possible defence, however...

I feel I'm on fairly safe ground in saying the likelihood of PRs testimony being the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth is no greater than that of alien abduction.

 

[Winterbells]

And you don't find it coincidental that this bloke just happens to be strolling thru the dark cold park at the same time as a creep is commiting a crime.

why would it be a coincidence? People were around at just about every step of this crime.
[edited to remove duplicated post of mine]

 

[Winterbells]

- The witness lied about seeing a man in the park

- The witness saw PR in the park

- The witness saw another, unidentified male in the park who would be a vital witness.

Take your pick. I think a lot of people also get stuck on the “accidental drowning” side of things. It’s very easy to look at that and say yeah it’s very possible that happened, but what they keep missing is why was she even near the river to begin with? You just do not walk in there by accident and go all the way across and stumble in to the river.

But why was she lying down on the snowy/icy/freezing cold pavement? She clearly wasn’t functioning in a rational way at all.

 

[Cherwell]

It was your use of the word 'credible' in the previous post. Like for some reason, a person must justify being out at night minding their own business in a free country. There are countless reasons someone could choose to be out on a cold night. They might have had a row and are cooling off, nature watching, getting home from a friends, having a chill out, they might work nights and be off and it's a normal time for them.
As I said previously, it is unlikely this person was not PR but absolutely not impossible.

Credible, yes.
"Like for some reason, a person must justify being out at night minding their own business in a free country" - no, not at all.
I was looking for reasons why someone might be in that specific place and you have suggested some.
"Getting home from a friend's" sounds like an obvious one, but seems implausible in that place. The other reasons, fair enough.

 

[Tortoise]

New poll (since manslaughter doesn't appear to be an option)

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/new-poll-libby-squire-uk.558361/

 

[tedtink]

DBM

 

[Skigh]

DBM

Voting is on your own personal opinion.

 

[Lyall0814]

New poll (since manslaughter doesn't appear to be an option)

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/new-poll-libby-squire-uk.558361/

Ta.

 

[tedtink]

Voting is on your own personal opinion.

Thanks - I wasn't too sure, I've never voted on WS before

 

[CoverMeCagney]

And you don't find it coincidental that this bloke just happens to be strolling thru the dark cold park at the same time as a creep is commiting a crime.

Plus... if there was a second man in the park, at the exact times all the multiple screams were heard, I am pretty sure he’d have come forward because he’d have heard those screams as clear as a bell that night.

 

[Skigh]

Thanks - I wasn't too sure, I've never voted on WS before

Part of voting etiquette is to keep the results private and not discuss how many people voted guilty or not guilty .Only members can vote,but anyone can read this thread.

 

[Lyall0814]

Part of voting etiquette is to keep the results private. Only members can vote,but anyone can read this thread.

Apologies. Have corrected.

 

[Skigh]

Apologies. Have corrected.

Always interesting to see how close our voting is to the final verdict.

 

[Loobyloo]

<part snipped>
I wonder with the gap in proceedings if the prosecution may get another quick run through before the Defence summing up? It does seem a bit unfair that the Defence are going to be putting their closing case forward almost 4 days after the prosecution.

As humans we have a tendency to keep the most recent things we’ve heard at the forefront of our decision making, which could have an effect on areas of the case when the jury retire!

I think the gap was shorter than that - the prosecution summing up was on Monday & only Tuesday was lost to snow. Hopefully the jury will still have the prosecution's remarks still fresh in their minds, in addition to the judge going back over some of them.

 

[Loobyloo]

Can anyone help me with this? I'm thinking about the defence querying SA's timings and testimony. A few days ago I am pretty sure someone posted a link. It was to a newspaper article - I think it might have been the Express - and I am under the impression it was SA and also his father speaking in the article. One of them mentions that the man seen was sprinting at times. I'm just wanting to verify whether this is what I actually read as it seems to be in conflict with what SA stated in court, that the man seen was walking quickly. I have looked back but can't find it and would love to read it again.

I've found my post from last night which includes the relevant quote, if that helps?
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #23

The original article was in the Telegraph, but it's paywalled.
As others have pointed out, the father's comments are only hearsay evidence.

But I've just noticed the post I was quoting also includes an extract from a Daily Mirror article, where it's the son who says directly 'Then I saw a male running'.

Clear as mud.......

 

[Loobyloo]

I wonder what people make of the fact that manslaughter hasn't been offered as an alternative charge to murder. Is the defence so confident PR's not guilty plea will be accepted by the jury that they don't feel the need to entertain a lesser charge?

I think I'm right in saying manslaughter has to be mentioned in the original charges, though the CPS website is ambiguous:

Manslaughter is an alternative verdict that can be returned on a prosecution for murder. Section 6 Criminal Law Act 1967 provides that, on an indictment for murder, a person found not guilty may be found guilty of manslaughter.
[...]
In murder cases, when a verdict of guilty of manslaughter arises as a real possibility, a separate count or counts of manslaughter should be added to the indictment. Notwithstanding Section 6 of the Criminal Law Act 1967, above, it is preferable to include any appropriate alternative counts in the indictment.
[...]
The prosecution should decide in advance of a murder trial whether or not an alternative count of manslaughter should be added to the indictment.​

(my bold)
Homicide: Murder and Manslaughter | The Crown Prosecution Service
Does 'should' here mean 'must'?

This is bothering me, as I can't help thinking (from the evidence presented in court) that manslaughter would be a safer verdict. IMO it's definitely PR's fault that Libby is dead, whether or not he killed her with his own hands. But as things stand, if the jury isn't convinced by the defence, they'll have to go straight to guilty of murder, if the compromise of manslaughter isn't available as an option. Or if the defence has sown some doubts, they would have to let PR off completely.

Would be interested to hear others' thoughts.