UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #23

[JosieJo]

And how are you going to be sure?

From the evidence

 

[HongKongPhooey]

And how are you going to be sure?

I think in most cases, you might argue the jury can never be 100% sure (which I think is where you're coming from too).

Unless a murder is captured on a clear camera, no discrepancies, full path evidence etc... How can a jury feel there is no doubt whatsover.

And in those cases, anyone with half a brain would plead guilty anyway so it wouldnt go to trial.

This is why the judge's summing up is so crucial isnt it.

 

[JosieJo]

Do you believe that 'No body' murders shouldn't be tried then? So if the murderer tried hard enough to hide it then they get away with it? No body, little evidence, no cause of death = home free?

Absolutely not ...its all about the other evidence and whether the other evidence makes you sure ...not whether there is a body or not

 

[Tortoise]

And how are you going to be sure?

The ongoing screams don't tally with death caused during rape - if he was raping her at 12:17 what had he been doing there since 12:11?

None of the scream witnesses help the prosecution's case, it's not just eliminating the Claremont witnesses. IMO

 

[mrazda71]

It was me But maybe I added 2+2 and came with 5 When his mother in the interview said "he was a boy who baked cakes" I must have hopped into conclusion he finished a cooking school. My bad, sorry. I trawled Internet to verify it and found nothing.

Hi @Dotta How did you hear about Relowicz? Is the case on Polish news?

I think we read that his home village is quite small, I think around 700 people? I was going to say, IF he had been doing no good things in his home village they would all know about it but, he didn't go far from his house in Hull to offend.

We have phrase here which criminals usually abide by which is 'don't poop on your own doorstep' ... Relowicz clearly didn't hear this one!

 

[JosieJo]

Interesting point. Would PR be more or less likely to have faced charges and a trial IF Libby had never been found?

Less imo

 

[CoverMeCagney]

We have phrase here which criminals usually abide by which is 'don't poop on your own doorstep' ... Relowicz clearly didn't hear this one!

I think he just mistranslated the word “poop” and left other deposits instead

 

[Tortoise]

Lunch should be finished.

(as in over, not eaten)

 

[Skigh]

I think he just mistranslated the word “poop” and left other deposits instead

 

[mrazda71]

I think he just mistranslated the word “poop” and left other deposits instead

Pity he didn't keep it quite literally to 'his own' doorstep eh!

 

[jamjim]

14:00
Trial resumes

The trial has begun again after lunch with Justice Lambert now giving the jury legal directions.

Libby Squire murder trial updates as judge sums up evidence

 

[Dotta]

Hi @Dotta How did you hear about Relowicz? Is the case on Polish news?

I think we read that his home village is quite small, I think around 700 people? I was going to say, IF he had been doing no good things in his home village they would all know about it but, he didn't go far from his house in Hull to offend.

We have phrase here which criminals usually abide by which is 'don't poop on your own doorstep' ... Relowicz clearly didn't hear this one!

This case caught my attention while I was browsing Daily Mail in Internet - I try to pracitise English every day ha ha. When I saw the headline "Polish Butcher..." my jaw literaly dropped!!! I immediately went to Websleuths and have read every post here since then. There is nothing about this case in Polish press so I rely on Internet news in English. I have only you dear posters to talk about this dreadful case. My family and friends consider my interest in true crime as morbid and freaky. Sigh.

 

[Newthoughts]

I agree totally in the true sense ...imo anyway..we don't have enough evidence of proof ...not enough to be sure
Obviously we have not been in court so the jury may easily feel "sure"
I also think here he may well be found guilty using balance of probability...which imo is wrong ..but who will not want this man found guilty? Who would care about the reasons ? ..as whatever happened he was likely to have caused her death

You have a limited number of options because we absolutely 100% know something happened.

We also know a sexual predator was prowling the streets. We know he took her, without hesitation to a park with a river. We know he had drone footage of that park. We know he raped her.

We know he's 14 stone and she's vulnerable.

We know by that point she's not just be drunk as she was at the start of events but would be hypothermic as well. More distressed and still drunk.

We'd seen her falling over on a brightly lit flat pavement when just drunk. We know an expert has said she would be exhausted and would struggle to fight and run.

We know the sexual predator claims to have left her on the street not in the park. We know parks are harder to walk on than pavements.

We know there is a larger ratio of park to river for her to stumble around. We know the hypothermia has left her more likely to fall over and we she will get more hypothermic as time progresses


We know it would take more effort to get into that park than on to the road. We know it would take more effort to stumble into the river should she be unlucky enough to reach it and it's banks. She then has to get in far enough to be swept away.


We can infer from the scientist that he doesn't prefer drowning tho can't exclude it

Locals have said they have no issue with timing. The defence hasn't really pushed it very hard for some reason.

So given the above what do you think most likely. She is raped and put in the water. Or raped and gets there herself

 

[ChiCubs2016]

Interesting point. Would PR be more or less likely to have faced charges and a trial IF Libby had never been found?

Honestly, in this case if Libby was not found I think less likely. This is why I have said numerous times how grateful Libby was found. We would not have proof of rape. That is not to say I would still not believe PR was involved I am just not sure the prosecution would have been able to bring the case forward. I am not sure. I do not know how the courts work in England. We have had cases in the US that have stood trial without a body that have had damning evidence and some with all circumstantial evidence.
Murderers hide, destroy bodies for a reason. To make sure forensic evidence is not found. Fortunately forensics have advanced tremendously. For good as well. People are being release from prison based on DNA. This is why I think PR put Libby in the river. He had to make sure she was not found. And not just because of semen, but he raped her, he had to consider there would be other evidence. Skin under nails from scratching him, transfer of evidence from clothing. I am sure he left more than semen but it was washed away. He also washed his clothes, bathed and washed his car. To eliminating evidence. MOO

 

[JosieJo]

I suppose another way of looking at it is ..for me ...there are things absent that in this same scene would have helped me be more sure ..even without a cause of death ...for example

Blood on his clothes
A liking of violent or rape
Googling about bodies in water
Googling around murder sentences
Disposal of his clothes rather than washing
Previous violence

I'm not saying the absence of these mean he didn't do it
I'm giving examples of things that in other trials have helped me be sure

And just to point out again I'm not saying he didn't kill her or will not be found guilty

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Lunch should be finished.

(as in over, not eaten)

I think he just mistranslated the word “poop” and left other deposits instead

It is now

 

[mrazda71]

This case caught my attention while I was browsing Daily Mail in Internet - I try to pracitice English every day ha ha. When I saw the headline "Polish Butcher..." my jaw literaly dropped!!! I immediately went to Websleuths and have read every post here since then. There is nothing about this case in Polish press so I rely on Internet news in English. I have only you dear posters to talk about this dreadful case. My family and friends consider my interest in true crime as morbid and freaky. Sigh.

Your English is near perfect!

It's a pity you can't write a Polish version and send it to his village so we can get some people who might know his history to come to Websleuth

 

[JosieJo]

You have a limited number of options because we absolutely 100% know something happened.

We also know a sexual predator was prowling the streets. We know he took her, without hesitation to a park with a river. We know he had drone footage of that park. We know he raped her.

We know he's 14 stone and she's vulnerable.

We know by that point she's not just be drunk as she was at the start of events but would be hypothermic as well. More distressed and still drunk.

We'd seen her falling over on a brightly lit flat pavement when just drunk. We know an expert has said she would be exhausted and would struggle to fight and run.

We know the sexual predator claims to have left her on the street not in the park. We know parks are harder to walk on than pavements.

We know there is a larger ratio of park to river for her to stumble around. We know the hypothermia has left her more likely to fall over and we she will get more hypothermic as time progresses


We know it would take more effort to get into that park than on to the road. We know it would take more effort to stumble into the river should she be unlucky enough to reach it and it's banks. She then has to get in far enough to be swept away.


We can infer from the scientist that he doesn't prefer drowning tho can't exclude it

Locals have said they have no issue with timing. The defence hasn't really pushed it very hard for some reason.

So given the above what do you think most likely. She is raped and put in the water. Or raped and gets there herself

The law says you have to be sure not look at probability

It may be that people are sure aswell as having thoughts on probability...not saying thats wrong ...as long as the person is sure

 

[Newthoughts]

would you say the distance between LS house and Haworth street is about the same as from the entrance of the park to the river? As on the CCTV she turns onto Beverly from Wellesley, crosses the road reasonably quickly in front of a bus and makes it to Haworth street without falling down so if it’s roughly the same distance then surely it’s possible she made it to the river edge?

Not sure if it is the same distance but looks similar on maps
I’ve searched for this particular piece of footage but I can’t find it.

When she left her house she was drunk and walking on pavements. She has not yet spent a considerable amount of time in minus five temps

When she hypothetcally enters the park she has mild hypothermia which will seriously impact on her. She will be walking on park land - not as easy.

There are slopes and undregrowth and mud banks to negotiate,

 

[Alyce]

would you say the distance between LS house and Haworth street is about the same as from the entrance of the park to the river? As on the CCTV she turns onto Beverly from Wellesley, crosses the road reasonably quickly in front of a bus and makes it to Haworth street without falling down so if it’s roughly the same distance then surely it’s possible she made it to the river edge?

Not sure if it is the same distance but looks similar on maps
I’ve searched for this particular piece of footage but I can’t find it.

But vastly different terrain.... well lit pavements of Wellesley and Beverley versus the grass and pathway of ORPF

and the timing at Oak Road is almost one hour later, when Libby’s condition would have deteriorated further...plus her being in shock from being assaulted and raped