UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #23

[Steve2021]

If we accept what SA says we have either:-
1. As per PR, Libby in the road at 12.19 so some random woman near the river screaming from 12.15/12.16 to 12.19-12.23, and some random man leaving the park at 12.22-12.27
or 2. PR lying and Libby by the river screaming from 12.15/12.16 to 12.19-12.23, and the random man leaving the park at 12.22-12.27.
What do we make of that because it's all getting too complicated for me now?

 

[C.greek]

If we accept what SA says we have either:-
1. As per PR, Libby in the road at 12.19 so some random woman near the river screaming from 12.15/12.16 to 12.19-12.23, and some random man leaving the park at 12.22-12.27
or 2. PR lying and Libby by the river screaming from 12.15/12.16 to 12.19-12.23, and the random man leaving the park at 12.22-12.27.
What do we make of that because it's all getting too complicated for me now?

Where do you get the random man leaving the park 12.22-12.27 from?

 

[mrazda71]

I am making the general point that it is not unknown for inebriated people to fall into water and drown, in fact is is more common than you might imagine.

It's a common enough occurrence anywhere that there's a waterway plus bars nearby but ...

How many of those drunk drowned souls are stalked, abducted and raped before falling in and I'd bet good money that their cause if death is 90%+ definitively ... drowning.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

I’d forgotten about that, but I feel it still fits with SAs testimony on timings and that they were singular screams. It made me consider bonfire night and how many times I’ve heard bangs, but still had to look left and right to see the fireworks- so I heard the noise, but didn’t accurately hear enough to be looking at the lights immediately.

And I would agree with this if SA indicated the screams came from Oak Road very close to his driveway. He indicated about 150 meters away to the left of the pond. I think the screams would have sounded different, closer if they were coming from where PR indicated. MOO

 

[Ruthbullock]

If we accept what SA says we have either:-
1. As per PR, Libby in the road at 12.19 so some random woman near the river screaming from 12.15/12.16 to 12.19-12.23, and some random man leaving the park at 12.22-12.27
or 2. PR lying and Libby by the river screaming from 12.15/12.16 to 12.19-12.23, and the random man leaving the park at 12.22-12.27.
What do we make of that because it's all getting too complicated for me now?

Can you share where you saw the witness recollect screaming, because I can only find references to an intermittent scream every 30 seconds to minute or so, not screams or screaming which indicates something continuous, but singular (and as SA said common to hear around there due to students)

 

[Winterbells]

The 'evidence' that PR murdered Libby seems only to be in the fact that he is a despicable human being who rapes and lies and therefore must have killed her because he's violent and you can't believe a word he says. That to me, is not evidence.

(RSBM) All very true. The judge said "the prosecution must prove Relowicz is guilty".... “The prosecution must satisfy you of the defendant’s guilt.”
Libby Squire murder trial live updates: Defence give closing speech

 

[CoverMeCagney]

"Libby Squire disappearance: 'Eerie' screaming heard as student vanishes | UK | News | Express.co.uk" Libby Squire disappearance: 'Eerie' screaming heard as student vanishes | UK | News | Express.co.uk

Thanks, Josie! Meanwhile I went back to an early thread and found this post:


WITNESS STATEMENTS

@12.15 through 12.30
Male witness who lives in house overlooking fields: “I woke at about quarter past 12 and there was a scream. It sounded like a woman’s scream towards the back of the park, where the river bank and pond is. Then 30 seconds later there was another scream. She must have screamed seven or eight times. All of the screams had gaps between them. The screams must have gone on for about 15 minutes. “They sounded eerie, they sounded dark. Then I saw a male running."
Girl heard screaming in park just minutes after Libby Squire vanished
Same witness' father: "My son heard the screaming - he heard about six or seven screams - and he went to look out of the window. He said it sounded like he was moving. It was intermittent. The man he saw wasn't dressed for a night out. He wasn't dressed for the weather. He saw him running for around 40 yards, sprinting at times. He said he was on his own and he wasn’t looking back."
Libby Squire: Police examining CCTV footage which may show missing student

So it was Sam’s father who mentioned the “screams were moving” bit. Thought I was going a bit loopy!

Moving from where to where?

 

[HongKongPhooey]

If we accept what SA says we have either:-
1. As per PR, Libby in the road at 12.19 so some random woman near the river screaming from 12.15/12.16 to 12.19-12.23, and some random man leaving the park at 12.22-12.27
or 2. PR lying and Libby by the river screaming from 12.15/12.16 to 12.19-12.23, and the random man leaving the park at 12.22-12.27.
What do we make of that because it's all getting too complicated for me now?

IMHO, the witness timings were slightly out. It's the only thing that makes sense to me without adding foxes and other unknown third parties with evil intent. I'm sure it was Libby, because PR said she was screaming and I dont believe she was conscious when he left her.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

Can you share where you saw the witness recollect screaming, because I can only find references to an intermittent scream every 30 seconds to minute or so, not screams or screaming which indicates something continuous, but singular (and as SA said common to hear around there due to students)

The easiest way I have found to find testimony references is to “stalk” @jamjim post by looking at their profile and clicking on postings. Some may find it easier on the Hull site but anytime I look I cannot find what I am looking for.

 

[tedtink]

If we accept what SA says we have either:-
1. As per PR, Libby in the road at 12.19 so some random woman near the river screaming from 12.15/12.16 to 12.19-12.23, and some random man leaving the park at 12.22-12.27
or 2. PR lying and Libby by the river screaming from 12.15/12.16 to 12.19-12.23, and the random man leaving the park at 12.22-12.27.
What do we make of that because it's all getting too complicated for me now?

Me too.
And this............
"The screaming was heard some 10-15 minutes after Relowicz left Oak Road.
But Mr Brewster admits he is not sure they were the screams of a woman.
Mr Wright said: “So far as what you actually heard is concerned, was there a bit of a dispute? You thought you had a screech or a scream from an animal and it was Hannah that said she thought it was a woman.
"You weren’t fully convinced and dismissed it as more of a cry from an animal and went on to say in your statement that even when you read about Libby you thought you could be wasting people’s time as you wasn’t sure it was a woman, is that right?”
Mr Brewster has confirmed this."

ETA Link..........
Pawel Relowicz returns to witness stand as week two of trial ends

We could go round and round on this

 

[JosieJo]

If we accept what SA says we have either:-
1. As per PR, Libby in the road at 12.19 so some random woman near the river screaming from 12.15/12.16 to 12.19-12.23, and some random man leaving the park at 12.22-12.27
or 2. PR lying and Libby by the river screaming from 12.15/12.16 to 12.19-12.23, and the random man leaving the park at 12.22-12.27.
What do we make of that because it's all getting too complicated for me now?

The screams as per SA ...even with the variation he gives do not fit any of the scenarios presented in court

 

[ChiCubs2016]

IMHO, the witness timings were slightly out. It's the only thing that makes sense to me without adding foxes and other unknown third parties with evil intent. I'm sure it was Libby, because PR said she was screaming and I dont believe she was conscious when he left her.

Timing is really hard to measure. For instance, my hubby and I were on the same phone call. One of the people we were talking to is a talker! She yaps on and on. At one point my hubby whispered, “she has been talking for at least 6- 7 minutes”. It was less than 2! I know this is different than hearing someone scream but I can see how timing can be off. MOO

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Timing is really hard to measure. For instance, my hubby and I were on the same phone call. One of the people we were talking to is a talker! She yaps on and on. At one point my hubby whispered, “she has been talking for at least 6- 7 minutes”. It was less than 2! I know this is different than hearing someone scream but I can see how timing can be off. MOO

Me too.

Today Mr HKP said wow, it's 20 past one already.. When I looked at the same clock on the oven, it was actually 13:28. He misread the 8 for a zero. It is easily done.

 

[JosieJo]

Me too.

Today Mr HKP said wow, it's 20 past one already.. When I looked at the same clock on the oven, it was actually 13:28. He misread the 8 for a zero. It is easily done.

I do think SA over estimated the length of time she was screaming
This is why I think he raped her in the park ..and from there I'm not sure whether he left her alive or not
Him saying he did not go into the park has made it so much worse for himself imo

 

[Ruthbullock]

Thanks, Josie! Meanwhile I went back to an early thread and found this post:


WITNESS STATEMENTS

@12.15 through 12.30
Male witness who lives in house overlooking fields: “I woke at about quarter past 12 and there was a scream. It sounded like a woman’s scream towards the back of the park, where the river bank and pond is. Then 30 seconds later there was another scream. She must have screamed seven or eight times. All of the screams had gaps between them. The screams must have gone on for about 15 minutes. “They sounded eerie, they sounded dark. Then I saw a male running."
Girl heard screaming in park just minutes after Libby Squire vanished
Same witness' father: "My son heard the screaming - he heard about six or seven screams - and he went to look out of the window. He said it sounded like he was moving. It was intermittent. The man he saw wasn't dressed for a night out. He wasn't dressed for the weather. He saw him running for around 40 yards, sprinting at times. He said he was on his own and he wasn’t looking back."
Libby Squire: Police examining CCTV footage which may show missing student

So it was Sam’s father who mentioned the “screams were moving” bit. Thought I was going a bit loopy!

Moving from where to where?

Who knows, but surely a bloke in a bomber jacket/ other style jacket is dressed for the weather? He hasn’t been in court- but was the moving screamer who wasn’t dressed for the weather actually female?

 

[tedtink]

I do think SA over estimated the length of time she was screaming
This is why I think he raped her in the park ..and from there I'm not sure whether he left her alive or not
Him saying he did not go into the park has made it so much worse for himself imo

Agree.
But I think PR was not sure whether he'd left her alive or not and that's why he went back.
JMO.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Me too.
And this............
"The screaming was heard some 10-15 minutes after Relowicz left Oak Road.
But Mr Brewster admits he is not sure they were the screams of a woman.
Mr Wright said: “So far as what you actually heard is concerned, was there a bit of a dispute? You thought you had a screech or a scream from an animal and it was Hannah that said she thought it was a woman.
"You weren’t fully convinced and dismissed it as more of a cry from an animal and went on to say in your statement that even when you read about Libby you thought you could be wasting people’s time as you wasn’t sure it was a woman, is that right?”
Mr Brewster has confirmed this."

We could go round and round on this

Can we provide links please, it’s not a moan- but really helps

 

[C.greek]

I do think SA over estimated the length of time she was screaming
This is why I think he raped her in the park ..and from there I'm not sure whether he left her alive or not
Him saying he did not go into the park has made it so much worse for himself imo

Do you think then that the woman heard screaming was Libby while being raped? (OMG I am horrified of writing this let alone thinking it. This beautiful young girl. ) If so, why would she get quiet afterwards?

 

[tedtink]

Can we provide links please, it’s not a moan- but really helps

ETA Link

 

[Steve2021]

Can you share where you saw the witness recollect screaming, because I can only find references to an intermittent scream every 30 seconds to minute or so, not screams or screaming which indicates something continuous, but singular (and as SA said common to hear around there due to students)

Perhaps I was grammatically incorrect and should have said screams not screaming. I wasn't trying to suggest continuous screams, I meant a period in which there was one or more scream.

Where do you get the random man leaving the park 12.22-12.27 from?

Ok, SA said he awoke 12.14, heard 1st scream 12.15 or 12.16, screams lasted 4-7 minutes which takes us to 12.19 earliest 12.23 latest. Then saw man 3 or 4 minutes later, so 12.22 earliest 12.27 latest.

If my maths is correct!