UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #23

[Newthoughts]

It reminds me of the pistorius case where different neighbours heard different things and timed events via different clocks.

What was important is there were reasons why some heard things that others didn't and why the clocks were not the same. I tend to think the broad brush of the evidence is most important.

Multiple people heard her screaming in the park, and then PR had to fess up to that at the last moment. But based on his own evidence, there is no reason why she'd be screaming after he left.

To me that's a key blunder - he doesn't say she was screaming after he left.

I think another key blunder was keeping out if the park. Misadventure seems far more likely to me if he'd claimed they were in the park. It would also completely explain the man. Just to have a wee in private. Walk her round to help her sober up - anything

As it is I struggle to see her getting to a river in her state.

 

[Joolz1975]

I think for his version to work with the prosecution evidence as well as the defence, he needs to leave with her alive, heading into the park shouting etc

IMO the problem of his version is it is tailored to the defence witnesses, but it can't explain the strong prosecution witness.

So then you get into the Pistorian nonsense of shouting being mistaken for screaming etc and Libby needing to be shouting and screaming for an extended period which makes no real sense.

No it doesn't.

 

[Newthoughts]

I think you might be right that she got away from him

I suspect he might have chased her and she blundered in the river - the timings could work for that - especially if he turned back before she went in - but she might not have known where he was

Then he went back to check the crime scene

Professor Deakin said her ability to run away would be impaired didn't he?

 

[mrjitty]

Professor Deakin said her ability to run away would be impaired didn't he?

Maybe - but it's possible with an adrenalin boost she ran when he got off her? She was potentially fighting for her life after all. She doesn't have to go far. If they were well into the park, we might be talking about 200m and he may have given up the chase or not pursued her

 

[Tortoise]

I think you might be right that she got away from him

I suspect he might have chased her and she blundered in the river - the timings could work for that - especially if he turned back before she went in - but she might not have known where he was

Then he went back to check the crime scene

It makes the most sense to me that she got away - with the pauses between screams, if he killed her when he raped her she obviously wouldn't be screaming, and I don't think it would have taken him long to rape her after getting there, with his physical capabilities compared to hers.

I think he's distanced himself from the park because that's where she died. The four and a half minutes when he was seen actually driving away doesn't seem long enough to get to river, picking up and carrying a dead body on the way, and back in time to be driving not just unlocking the car.

 

[Newthoughts]

Maybe - but it's possible with an adrenalin boost she ran when he got off her? She was potentially fighting for her life after all. She doesn't have to go far. If they were well into the park, we might be talking about 200m and he may have given up the chase or not pursued her

But PR missed that opportunity by never putting them in the park. The judges summing up is throwing a different light on the pathologists report.

 

[NorthernSoul]

When does everyone think a verdict will be in?

A, Today
B, Tomorrow
C, Next week

I'm going for C, next week. I also think the quicker they give a verdict the more likely it will be guilty.

 

[Sally4x]

But do you think he murdered her there? Or just left her and found her body on his return?

I think he murdered her there or left her dying there and whilst at home in the bath decided that it would be better for him to remove her body than leave it lying there.

 

[NorthernSoul]

It reminds me of the pistorius case where different neighbours heard different things and timed events via different clocks.

What was important is there were reasons why some heard things that others didn't and why the clocks were not the same. I tend to think the broad brush of the evidence is most important.

Multiple people heard her screaming in the park, and then PR had to fess up to that at the last moment. But based on his own evidence, there is no reason why she'd be screaming after he left.

To me that's a key blunder - he doesn't say she was screaming after he left.

I think he did say she was screaming as he left? And we also know other witnesses who saw her at the bus stop earlier described her as screaming.

 

[Chambo1994]

When does everyone think a verdict will be in?

A, Today
B, Tomorrow
C, Next week

C

I really don’t think this will be the cut and dry decision some posters seem to think it is, both the defence and prosecution cases will need to be reviewed in some detail. There is absolutely no way on earth we will get a unanimous verdict today unless there was crucial evidence unreported by the in court journalist.

 

[Newthoughts]

Maybe - but it's possible with an adrenalin boost she ran when he got off her? She was potentially fighting for her life after all. She doesn't have to go far. If they were well into the park, we might be talking about 200m and he may have given up the chase or not pursued her

I don't really know much about hypothermic states other than she was deemed to be in the first stage by the expert. But I do wonder about whether the body would waste energy on an adrenaline surge when it's focused on maintaining body temperature. That would need a Dr to answer I guess.

 

[tedtink]

I think he did say she was screaming as he left? And we also know other witnesses who saw her at the bus stop earlier described her as screaming.

Which 'version' was that?
Before he knew about scream witnesses or after?

 

[Joolz1975]

I think he murdered her there or left her dying there and whilst at home in the bath decided that it would be better for him to remove her body than leave it lying there.

Yeh I can see how that would be possible definitely.

 

[Miss_French]

I am more willing to believe that a trained military person would be more accurate with the information and the times so I personally think the witness statement of SA is the more accurate one.

I'm ex-RAF and I wouldn't suggest SA's testimony is more accurate because he served, and he might not have even been in a job that called for 'military precision' in timings. Yes to the 12.14 start time of the event because there's a reference, but we're really no better than anyone else at estimating; it's clocks and watches all the way!

 

[Vermont24]

Professor Deakin said her ability to run away would be impaired didn't he?

I'm struggling with the idea of her running away. The CCTV from outside of Welly and the later footage of her attempting to cross Beverley Road show how unsteady she was.

 

[NorthernSoul]

I would like to know whether Libby could swim. We know she was afraid of water so possibly she couldn't and of course this would be a crucial factor if she did fall in either accidentally or being chased.

 

[HullGirl72]

I'm struggling with the idea of her running away. The CCTV from outside of Welly and the later footage of her attempting to cross Beverley Road show how unsteady she was.

That’s true.
Also the fact PR said she was still vomiting means she was still quite drunk.
It funny we never heard she vomited once up to him stating she did ( I think?! )
The cold will have made her even more unsteady. It’s very hard to think straight when you’re very very cold as it is.

 

[mrjitty]

I'm ex-RAF and I wouldn't suggest SA's testimony is more accurate because he served, and he might not have even been in a job that called for 'military precision' in timings. Yes to the 12.14 start time of the event because there's a reference, but we're really no better than anyone else at estimating; it's clocks and watches all the way!

I get the feeling that the timings of the witnesses can't be relied on as minute perfect compared to the CCTV

 

[HullGirl72]

I would like to know whether Libby could swim. We know she was afraid of water so possibly she couldn't and of course this would be a crucial factor if she did fall in either accidentally or being chased.

If Libby fell in and was stuck in the mud why were her shoes still on when she was found
She would have been trying to stand up and her shoes would’ve come off in the mud
But they didn’t.

 

[Tortoise]

Why does Libby need to be running? She doesn't have to be being chased to be screaming.