UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #23

[HullGirl72]

Why does Libby need to be running? She doesn't have to be being chased to be screaming.

When you’re running from danger you can’t really scream
You’re out of breath

 

[Vermont24]

Why does Libby need to be running? She doesn't have to be being chased to be screaming.

That's my point, I can't see her covering enough distance under her own steam to accidentally end up in the river.

 

[jamjim]

12:06
Relowicz police interviews

Justice Lambert has recapped the police interviews which provide differing accounts to the one he has provided in court.

Libby Squire murder trial updates as judge sums up evidence

 

[HullGirl72]

That's my point, I can't see her covering enough distance under her own steam to accidentally end up in the river.

If she had stumbled into the river accidentally wouldn’t her shoes have got stuck in the mud as she fell or tried to get free?
But they were on when she was found.

 

[Tortoise]

That's my point, I can't see her covering enough distance under her own steam to accidentally end up in the river.

But that puts a time on her entering the river, which we don't have.

 

[elliefant]

The jury have had the evidence first hand - seeing and hearing it - so there should be less opportunity for them to receive it differently, compared to us here who get it second or third hand - in summarised writing - and then interpret it; so I expect them to be less divided than us. Nevertheless I think it will take longer than today to reach a unanimous verdict. Tomorrow hopefully but I won’t be surprised if it does go into next week.

 

[jamjim]

12:09
Who is Pawel Relowicz?

Justice Lambert says Relowicz lived in Hull for eight years and moved over here to live with his sister in Hull but she eventually moved away. He had a wife and two children and worked as a butcher.

Libby Squire murder trial updates as judge sums up evidence

 

[NorthernSoul]

If Libby fell in and was stuck in the mud why were her shoes still on when she was found
She would have been trying to stand up and her shoes would’ve come off in the mud
But they didn’t.

I haven't seen anyone suggest she was stuck in the mud? I have seen a number of comments that she would have had to make her way through reeds, muddy banks etc. to reach the water and I didn't look in to this and assumed it was correct. But if you have a look on the Mirror article link posted earlier today where we were discussing the SA timings there is a photograph there of the police which very clearly shows a sheer grassy edge with a drop directly into the river, not at all as I had thought.

 

[Tortoise]

If she had stumbled into the river accidentally wouldn’t her shoes have got stuck in the mud as she fell or tried to get free?
But they were on when she was found.

I'm not sure her feet would have landed in a standing position if she fell in.

 

[elliefant]

UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #23

12:06
Relowicz police interviews

Justice Lambert has recapped the police interviews which provide differing accounts to the one he has provided in court.

Libby Squire murder trial updates as judge sums up evidence

Prime example. In this sentence would imply “he” is the police witness; but surely “he” is PR

 

[HullGirl72]

I haven't seen anyone suggest she was stuck in the mud? I have seen a number of comments that she would have had to make her way through reeds, muddy banks etc. to reach the water and I didn't look in to this and assumed it was correct. But if you have a look on the Mirror article link posted earlier today where we were discussing the SA timings there is a photograph there of the police which very clearly shows a sheer grassy edge with a drop directly into the river, not at all as I had thought.

If you read every single post through this thread there have been posters who said she could’ve got stuck in the mud and succumbed to hypothermia.
So much on this thread people haven’t read absolutely everything and it shows in their questions and replies.
If you read my answer properly I state when she was trying to stand up in the water to free herself

 

[Vermont24]

I haven't seen anyone suggest she was stuck in the mud? I have seen a number of comments that she would have had to make her way through reeds, muddy banks etc. to reach the water and I didn't look in to this and assumed it was correct. But if you have a look on the Mirror article link posted earlier today where we were discussing the SA timings there is a photograph there of the police which very clearly shows a sheer grassy edge with a drop directly into the river, not at all as I had thought.

That's quite a misleading photo - probably due to being taken from a low position on the opposite bank and the lense/focus used.

 

[HullGirl72]

I'm not sure her feet would have landed in a standing position if she fell in.

Yes but instinct will have told her to try and stand up to get out no matter how drunk she was

 

[Alyce]

When does everyone think a verdict will be in?

A, Today
B, Tomorrow
C, Next week

B tomorrow afternoon

 

[HullGirl72]

That's quite a misleading photo - probably due to being taken from a low position on the opposite bank and the lense/focus used.

Absolutely. It’s pure thick mud all around there and it’s very difficult to free yourself if you get stuck.

 

[Skigh]

12:09
Who is Pawel Relowicz?

Justice Lambert says Relowicz lived in Hull for eight years and moved over here to live with his sister in Hull but she eventually moved away. He had a wife and two children and worked as a butcher.

Libby Squire murder trial updates as judge sums up evidence

I wonder if he was sent to England to live with his sister because of his 'little problems ' . There was some talk somewhere about him training to be a chef in Poland.

 

[NorthernSoul]

That's my point, I can't see her covering enough distance under her own steam to accidentally end up in the river.

Remember to take into account that a substantial amount of time could have passed for her to cover that distance once PR had left. She would not have had to be running. I would have thought more stumbling around distraught, possibly trying to find somewhere to hide or just get away from the last place she saw her attacker, all the time hypothermic and disorientated.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

I am being very careful not to rely on any of PR versions. He had 5 different versions. If he had one or at the most two, I may consider them but you can clearly see how he changed his story to fit new evidence. I find it too hard to believe someone who stated their last four stories are lies but promises they are now telling the truth so I do not believe him when he says he said he was just trying to help, Lilly went willingly, she came on to him, they had consensual sex, he would not kiss her because she had saliva, he did not go in the park, he left Libby screaming near the green shed. I am sure I missed some but there were so many. So I am relying on the evidence that we have heard, tuning out the noise of PR, and although the timing has been questioned I can with good conscious say guilty to both charges. MOO

 

[Lestrade]

This isn't to say that either witness is right or wrong, just im not sure one set should be completely dismissed because it doesn't fit with PR murdering Libby.
Sometimes it does feel as though people would find PR guilty despite the evidence and not because of it (i see the temptation to do this i really do, the man is just ghastly), disregarding anything that doesn't fit the narrative yet placing vital importance on those bits that do. Moo[/QUOTE]

Please note the Judges direction "you are able to draw inferences from the evidence. You will reach your verdicts based on all of the evidence in this case"

ALL the evidence.

If we only ever take one favourable (to either side ) piece of evidence and concentrate on that then it is unlikely anyone would ever be able to 100% commit to anything, conviction or acquittal in any case ever tried.

The Judge is correct in her direction.

The are not an infinite number of things that could have happened to Libby Squire. It is a a very narrow band of possibilities.

That is narrowed even further by the fact she was last seen in the control of a sexual predator who had showed no sign of reigning in his behaviour and was in fact becoming more daring and adventurous. Given ALL the evidence of his behaviour, his numerous changing stories, the inconsistencies of what he said with reality, the fact Libby had to be coerced away from a well lit busy area very near her home, the fact she was never seen again after she went in the vicinity of the park Relowicz took her STRAIGHT to, without delay, the fact that it is way more than probable he forced himself on her given ALL what we know, the fact that he returned to the area hours later ,again without delay, and then still felt the need to commit further sexual offences, the fact that he made up stories about underwear, that he failed to mention the sexual contact until it was beyond doubt this had happened, that despite his "concern" on that night he showed zero concern in the following days. We could go on and on.

If despite this anyone thinks that the most likely thing of all that could have happened is that Relowicz, after picking up/coercing Libby out of "concern" and driving STRAIGHT to a dark, secluded, desolate park AWAY from the prying cameras he knew so well about, that this altered Libbys mood and demeanour so much that she initiated immediate sex with a man she had been reluctant to engage with moments earlier, that he obliged with that request despite been unable to kiss her because of apparent disgust at the saliva on her mouth (a telling image if ever there was one...) , that he suffered his injuries because of this refusal to kiss her, that he then left Libby because of HER behaviour, unharmed , then that after seeing her "follow his car", he would show his later "concern" by driving STRAIGHT back to the park without looking anywhere else it is massively more likely she would be, and would show zero concern at anytime following that park visit. And of course that Libby would upend all known prior behaviour (even years hence self harm behaviour) and throw herself in the river having made her way there through an enviroment she had previously studiously avoided, rather than walk the few hundred yards back to where she had been for several hours or the few hundred yards back towards her house....and after having done that, on discovery of her body, shown no definitive signs of death by drowning as though in fact it was MORE likely she was dead or dying when entering the river.

If anyone thinks that is the most likely occurence of that night and the time following then I do not understand that thought process.

The jury might well see that as the most likely but given ALL the facts then it would be a gross miscarriage.

 

[Ruthbullock]

I understand there's a lot of confusion over the witness timings, but witnesses are notoriously unreliable, it was the middle of the night,they had all been woken up, half asleep, i know if I'm woken up in the night from deep sleep it takes a while for my brain to kick in and the 'fuzziness' of sleep to wear off. If SA did not hear the later screams at 12.30 then equally why did the other witnesses not hear the earlier screams at 12.14 that SA heard? The likelihood is they all heard the same screams but because of the reasons I have outlined above the timings have become blurred. JMO.

The 12.30 witnesses were awake, not woken up.