UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #23

[Steve2021]

Completely agree with this. This is a key issue which throws the prosecution case into doubt. The fact the prosecution did not call the other witnesses who heard the screams makes it look as though they are selecting evidence to suit only the scenario they want the jury to believe. They might have been better including them I feel and leaving it for the jury to interpret.

I'm a bit behind today so someone else may already have replied, but my understanding is that it's not the prosecution trying to paint a dishonest picture for the jury. It's simply the way a trial works is that it is for the prosecution to set out their best case, then for the defence to do their best to defend it. It's not for the prosecution to call witnesses that are against them, it's for the defence to, that's just the way it works. It's not like the prosecution hide the other witnesses from the defence, they've already provided them with their details and statements way before the trial.

 

[HullGirl72]

This isn't to say that either witness is right or wrong, just im not sure one set should be completely dismissed because it doesn't fit with PR murdering Libby.
Sometimes it does feel as though people would find PR guilty despite the evidence and not because of it (i see the temptation to do this i really do, the man is just ghastly), disregarding anything that doesn't fit the narrative yet placing vital importance on those bits that do. Moo

Please note the Judges direction "you are able to draw inferences from the evidence. You will reach your verdicts based on all of the evidence in this case"

ALL the evidence.

If we only ever take one favourable (to either side ) piece of evidence and concentrate on that then it is unlikely anyone would ever be able to 100% commit to anything, conviction or acquittal in any case ever tried.

The Judge is correct in her direction.

The are not an infinite number of things that could have happened to Libby Squire. It is a a very narrow band of possibilities.

That is narrowed even further by the fact she was last seen in the control of a sexual predator who had showed no sign of reigning in his behaviour and was in fact becoming more daring and adventurous. Given ALL the evidence of his behaviour, his numerous changing stories, the inconsistencies of what he said with reality, the fact Libby had to be coerced away from a well lit busy area very near her home, the fact she was never seen again after she went in the vicinity of the park Relowicz took her STRAIGHT to, without delay, the fact that it is way more than probable he forced himself on her given ALL what we know, the fact that he returned to the area hours later ,again without delay, and then still felt the need to commit further sexual offences, the fact that he made up stories about underwear, that he failed to mention the sexual contact until it was beyond doubt this had happened, that despite his "concern" on that night he showed zero concern in the following days. We could go on and on.

If despite this anyone thinks that the most likely thing of all that could have happened is that Relowicz, after picking up/coercing Libby out of "concern" and driving STRAIGHT to a dark, secluded, desolate park AWAY from the prying cameras he knew so well about, that this altered Libbys mood and demeanour so much that she initiated immediate sex with a man she had been reluctant to engage with moments earlier, that he obliged with that request despite been unable to kiss her because of apparent disgust at the saliva on her mouth (a telling image if ever there was one...) , that he suffered his injuries because of this refusal to kiss her, that he then left Libby because of HER behaviour, unharmed , then that after seeing her "follow his car", he would show his later "concern" by driving STRAIGHT back to the park without looking anywhere else it is massively more likely she would be, and would show zero concern at anytime following that park visit. And of course that Libby would upend all known prior behaviour (even years hence self harm behaviour) and throw herself in the river having made her way there through an enviroment she had previously studiously avoided, rather than walk the few hundred yards back to where she had been for several hours or the few hundred yards back towards her house....and after having done that, on discovery of her body, shown no definitive signs of death by drowning as though in fact it was MORE likely she was dead or dying when entering the river.

If anyone thinks that is the most likely occurence of that night and the time following then I do not understand that thought process.

The jury might well see that as the most likely but given ALL the facts then it would be a gross miscarriage.[/QUOTE]

Brilliantly put.

 

[jamjim]

12:24
Previous convictions

Justice Lambert is going through Relwoicz's previous convictions.

Libby Squire murder trial updates as judge sums up evidence

 

[tedtink]

IF he'd had left her 'alive' after the rape there's also nothing to suggest that she didn't just lay there screaming in the exact same spot until she became unconscious.
He could have moved her later.
This is just as feasible as her walking around screaming until she 'fell in the river'.
This is the trouble trying to weave a narrative around the 2 sets of screams only and not taking all the evidence into account.
JMO

 

[HongKongPhooey]

12:24
Previous convictions

Justice Lambert is going through Relwoicz's previous convictions.

Libby Squire murder trial updates as judge sums up evidence

This could take some time

(Thanks for the updates JJ)

 

[Scorpiette]

When does everyone think a verdict will be in?

A, Today
B, Tomorrow
C, Next week

C.

 

[mrjitty]

It's not like the prosecution hide the other witnesses from the defence, they've already provided them with their details and statements way before the trial.

RSBM

Yep. And the prosecution and defence are professionals who handle many many cases. So typically they work out between them which side wants to call which witness during the preparation of going to trial.

 

[elliefant]

If despite this anyone thinks that the most likely thing of all that could have happened is that Relowicz, after picking up/coercing Libby out of "concern" and driving STRAIGHT to a dark, secluded, desolate park AWAY from the prying cameras he knew so well about, that this altered Libbys mood and demeanour so much that she initiated immediate sex with a man she had been reluctant to engage with moments earlier, that he obliged with that request despite been unable to kiss her because of apparent disgust at the saliva on her mouth (a telling image if ever there was one...) , that he suffered his injuries because of this refusal to kiss her, that he then left Libby because of HER behaviour, unharmed , then that after seeing her "follow his car", he would show his later "concern" by driving STRAIGHT back to the park without looking anywhere else it is massively more likely she would be, and would show zero concern at anytime following that park visit. And of course that Libby would upend all known prior behaviour (even years hence self harm behaviour) and throw herself in the river having made her way there through an enviroment she had previously studiously avoided, rather than walk the few hundred yards back to where she had been for several hours or the few hundred yards back towards her house....and after having done that, on discovery of her body, shown no definitive signs of death by drowning as though in fact it was MORE likely she was dead or dying when entering the river.

If anyone thinks that is the most likely occurence of that night and the time following then I do not understand that thought process.

The jury might well see that as the most likely but given ALL the facts then it would be a gross miscarriage.

Hi @Lestrade & welcome

Thankfully nobody here has said they think that is the most likely occurrence, and I feel confident the jury won’t either - even if they find him not guilty of murder.

 

[HullGirl72]

@Lestrade
Your post is absolutely brilliant.
It explains it perfectly

 

[NorthernSoul]

Absolutely. It’s pure thick mud all around there and it’s very difficult to free yourself if you get stuck.

Thank you for your comments and I can see you know the area which I don't so it's really helpful to my understanding. I had a quick search and found another pic of the river which seems to show the same as the one in the Mirror, that at least in parts there is grass just leading directly to the river edge.
Wild at Hull: A spring day at Oak Road playing fields
Also if you have any information on how deep the river is I would love to know this. I wasn't thinking for a moment that Libby would be able to stand up and I apologise re my comment on the shoes as it appears this is the case. I was imagining a strong-flowing river of some depth but if it was possible just to stand up in it I sincerely doubt my previous belief that Libby may have drowned.

 

[HullGirl72]

Hi @Lestrade & welcome

Thankfully nobody here has said they think that is the most likely occurrence, and I feel confident the jury won’t either - even if they find him not guilty of murder.

Actually quite a few have.

 

[elliefant]

Actually quite a few have.

I have only read that people are disputing whether the prosecution have proved their case. I have not seen anybody say they believe every word PR said, which Lestrade’s scenario requires.

 

[Lyall0814]

When does everyone think a verdict will be in?

A, Today
B, Tomorrow
C, Next week

A

 

[JosieJo]

So (as per summing up) Dr Lyall ruled out natural causes; said drowning unlikely; hypothermia plausible, and asphyxiation possible.

She didn't say drowning was unlikely....she said "the likely cause"....as in more likely than the others

 

[HullGirl72]

Thank you for your comments and I can see you know the area which I don't so it's really helpful to my understanding. I had a quick search and found another pic of the river which seems to show the same as the one in the Mirror, that at least in parts there is grass just leading directly to the river edge.
Wild at Hull: A spring day at Oak Road playing fields
Also if you have any information on how deep the river is I would love to know this. I wasn't thinking for a moment that Libby would be able to stand up and I apologise re my comment on the shoes as it appears this is the case. I was imagining a strong-flowing river of some depth but if it was possible just to stand up in it I sincerely doubt my previous belief that Libby may have drowned.

I haven’t explained what I meant properly
Sorry
What I mean is if she fell in, human instinct drunk or not tells you to get out ASAP and to do that you’d need to orient yourself to standing position. Your legs would be flailing wildly and you start to sink, feet first
That mud is horrendous. It’s exactly why people who jump off the Humber Bridge in the much bigger River Humber just a few miles away succumb so quickly. The mud pulls you under. If you look at the river Humber at low tide it’s just mud banks right across.
Her shoes were still on

 

[occasionalposter]

Thank you for your comments and I can see you know the area which I don't so it's really helpful to my understanding. I had a quick search and found another pic of the river which seems to show the same as the one in the Mirror, that at least in parts there is grass just leading directly to the river edge.
Wild at Hull: A spring day at Oak Road playing fields
Also if you have any information on how deep the river is I would love to know this. I wasn't thinking for a moment that Libby would be able to stand up and I apologise re my comment on the shoes as it appears this is the case. I was imagining a strong-flowing river of some depth but if it was possible just to stand up in it I sincerely doubt my previous belief that Libby may have drowned.

You wouldn't be able to stand up in it, it flows and whilst it will vary at tide (its currently very high with the rain) even at low you wouldn't be able to stand up, must be 8ft+ it also wouldn't be solid underfoot

 

[tedtink]

When does everyone think a verdict will be in?

A, Today
B, Tomorrow
C, Next week

Next week

 

[HullGirl72]

You wouldn't be able to stand up in it, it flows and whilst it will vary at tide (its currently very high with the rain) even at low you wouldn't be able to stand up, must be 8ft+ it also wouldn't be solid underfoot

Exactly
It’s not solid underfoot
Its boggy mud
So why were her shoes still on?

 

[jamjim]

12:41
What Relowicz said in the witness box

Justice Lambert said Relowicz “admitted in evidence he had told a number of lies during his interviews because he didn’t want his wife to know he had been doing the sorts of things he had been and that was why he had lied”.

She has reminded the jury of Relowicz’s cross examination and says he denied raping and killing Libby.

She says: “He said he left her alive and well at the bottom of Beresford Avenue shouting at him.”

Libby Squire murder trial updates as judge sums up evidence

 

[JusticeDT]

She didn't say drowning was unlikely....she said "the likely cause"....as in more likely than the others

I am not sure your interpretation is correct

"One thing Dr Lyall could say was that Libby had not died of natural causes. Apart from that, he could not ascertain the cause of death.

"He said he wasn’t prepared to say that death by drowning was the likely explanation as classical features were not present.

“He was asked about hypothermia. He said it was a plausible explanation and he couldn’t exclude it but could not advance it as a cause."

Justic Lambert also reminded the jury Dr Lyall could not rule out a violent death, such as asphyxiation despite no obvious injuries to the neck area.