UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 *ARREST* #19

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  • #381
For me its not that its impossible he took a step up and killed ...the problem is how will know for sure?

Basically- she's dead.

She was alive - he took her to the park - there is evidence of rape and then she's dead.

Not definatively from hypothermia.
Not definitively from drowning.
No serious injuries such as head trauma.

And yet she's dead and ended up in the water.

The logical explanation is that he killed her and put her in the water.
 
  • #382
More likely, I think that he inadvertently killed her during the rape by smothering or strangulation, ran away when he realised what he'd done, afraid that the screams would have alerted someone, and came back later to dispose of the body. I think he could cover the ground in four minutes, he knew where to go and where he'd left her.

I agree. The fact that the police appealed for those caught on Croda cameras suggests to me the police believe they might have seen something. They’ll want to know which route those people took, whether they went near that particular bench etc.

Croda CCTV times:
running man 1:13;
cycling man 1:24 then 1:34;
walking couple 2:34

Remind me, what time did Relowicz go back to the playing field?
 
  • #383
Basically- she's dead.

She was alive - he took her to the park - there is evidence of rape and then she's dead.

Not definatively from hypothermia.
Not definitively from drowning.
No serious injuries such as head trauma.

And yet she's dead and ended up in the water.

The logical explanation is that he killed her and put her in the water.

I need a little more information yet ..I find someone getting away and stumbling into water in such a state is as easily logical..especially in 7.5 mins ...i wish I didn't...I wish there wasn't another possibility that isn't bizarre or too far fetched
 
  • #384
If he raped and ran, supposedly expecting her to live to tell the tale, was he not concerned that she would recognise her in the future, being as he lived nearby? He didn’t leave the country. He hung around despite missing posters. Yet she could have been in hospital, or run off to her home town...
He knew she wasn’t going to be around imo.

That makes a lot of sense i agree ...then the devil in my ear says why on earth would he admit to one of his friends/ colleagues he had picked her up if he knew she was dead ? It was far from certain she wouldn't be found at that point even in the river
 
  • #385
I’m a bit confused about that car. Didn’t the two men who helped her come around 11:45? This image shows Libby with PR and another car that appears to be stopped on Beverley road? Maybe it’s the car PR was talking about when describing “Romanian” men in a car then but I never heard about it until today
Oh yes you're right thank you, I didn't notice the time stamp. Makes me ill to see this image. Maybe that car is not stopped but slowing down for lights etc. The two figures across the road must have seen/heard PR/LS, I wonder are they witnesses? Also I'm really confused about the whole timeline from 11.30 to the time they drove away in PRs car. He only arrived at 11.53 in Haworth street, how did it all unfold after that? Did he stalk Libby first and then go back to his car and then go back for her again? How long was the scenic in the area for? How many times did Libby walk up and down Beverley road? Lots of people must have seen them (cars, pedestrians). He seems so brazen in his actions with so many potential witnesses around. Pls could someone do a timeline based on what we know so far.
 
  • #386
Hello. Another lurker here too.

I joined to agree with the above points. I know Oak Road pretty well (although not super well) and I would be surprised if he managed to get Libby into the park, rape her, get her in the river and be out in the 10 or so minutes. The river is close, but I don't think it's that close.

It's really dark there though and she may well have stumbled into the river afterwards trying to find her way out in her confused state. It's possible too, that if she was already feeling suicidal, she probably felt even worse after the rape and sadly, it may have felt like an option to take that route herself.

I remember saying at the time she went missing that the police must have been absolutely certain she met her fate in Oak Road as they focussed all of their searching there. Whatever happened to the poor girl that night, PR is absolutely responsible for her death one way or another.
I don't think he'd risk just leaving her there alive after raping her. Too risky for him with DNA etc. He'd have wanted to get rid of any evidence hence killing her and dumping her in the river.
 
  • #387
That makes a lot of sense i agree ...then the devil in my ear says why on earth would he admit to one of his friends/ colleagues he had picked her up if he knew she was dead ? It was far from certain she wouldn't be found at that point even in the river
I think he was not surprised to be picked up for having her in his car, and is practiced at pre-empting suspicions and questions about his behaviour by laying out his stories beforehand to anyone who might be curious.
As you say, you would not expect a murderer to talk about having the victim or missing person in their car.
I don't think he has previously dealt with seriously curious people who notice and question things.
 
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  • #388
Pls could someone do a timeline based on what we know so far.

Here you go, Offaly. (source linked at the bottom)

January 31, 2019

Libby leaves her student home at Wellesley Avenue with friends at about 8.30pm and they walked to another student house on Cromer Street together

The group leave at about 11pm to walk to The Welly nightclub, at the junction of Wellington Lane and Beverley Road, where they arrive at 11.20pm

Libby is refused entry to the The Welly and is put in a taxi by her friends just before 11.30pm

The taxi drops her in Wellesley Avenue but she does not go home. She instead walks towards Beverley Road where she falls over in the street

Libby enters another house on Wellesley Avenue after the occupants heard her crying. She says she wants to go home but sets off towards Beverley Road, dropping her keys outside the house she left

She is then approached by a woman who tried to help her outside the former convent at the Endsleigh Centre, on Beverley Road

Two men try to help Libby as she lays in the snow near the junction of Haworth Road and Beverley Road. They were there from 11.40pm to 11.49pm

Another woman steps in to help as she sits on the floor near a bus stop close to the same junction. A supermarket manager spots her in the same location

Relowicz's Vauxhall Astra arrives at the end of Haworth Street at 11.57pm. The defendant gets out of the car, crosses the road to Beresford Avenue and tracks Libby as she walks back up Beverley Road

February 1, 2019

They interact outside the Endsleigh Centre and entered the grounds before walking back to the car at the end of Haworth Street

Relowicz drives off from Haworth Street at 12.08am with Libby in the car

They arrive at Oak Road playing fields at 12.11am

A man living in the house at the entrance to the playing fields wakes at 12.14am and "after a period that he thought was a couple of minutes" hears a woman screaming in the park. The man then sees a young man running from the park "perhaps a few minutes after the last scream"

At 12.19am, CCTV captures Relowicz's indicators flashing as he unlocks his car

Relowicz arrives home in Raglan Street at 12.23am

He leaves home again at 2.22am and drives back to Oak Road playing fields, arriving at 2.25am. He stays for a little over four minutes

Relowicz then drives around, arriving in Alexandra Road at 2.51am, walking over Newlands Avenue and performing a sex act in the street

He arrives back at Raglan Street but walks back to Newland Avenue where he is captured "walking up and down the road in that area for no apparent reason and exhibiting some strange behaviour"

The prosecution say Relowicz raped and murdered Miss Squire at Oak Road playing fields after arriving at 12.11am. They say he put her dead or dying into the River Hull, which runs along the north east of the park. They say this could have been at the 12.11am visit or the later one at 2.25am.

March 20, 2019

Libby's body is found in the Humber Estuary, off Spurn Point, by a fishing boat

Jurors heard previously how on the night she vanished, Libby had been drinking with friends and appeared "in good spirits" before the group headed to the nightclub in the city centre at around 11pm.

But once there, security staff on the door refused to let her in because she appeared to be drunk so she told her friends she would walk home instead.

Her friends put her in a taxi, which dropped Libby off close to her home but she "walked away from the safety of her front door".

Toxicology tests later revealed she was two-and-a-half times the drink-drive limit when she died.

She was later seen by passers-by "obviously drunk" and "sobbing" - including two men who spotted the student lying in the snow at the side of the road.

Jurors heard the bystanders tried to help her but were unable to understand what she was saying and she became verbally aggressive so they drove away.

A group of students who heard Libby crying outside their house let her in but she left, saying she wanted to go home, it was said.

Meanwhile Relowicz was allegedly "stalking" the student after he "identified her as a target".

Jurors were told CCTV showed some "toing and froing" between him and Libby before she entered his silver Astra - her gold watch later found damaged on the spot she was "intercepted".

She was driven to the isolated playing fields where witness Sam Alford then reported hearing a "series of screams", it was said.

Mr Wright said: "They were distant screams but they were loud screams.

"Mr Alford recalled them as frantic screams that had urgency and had depth.

"There were gaps between them and there were several of them."

'UNCONTROLLABLE SEXUAL URGES'
The court heard Mr Alford was looking out of his window a few minutes after the last scream when he saw a man "emerging from the darkness" running.

Relowicz allegedly left the playing field around seven-and-a-half minutes later without Libby.

Mr Wright said this was "more than enough time" for him to have "taken or pursued Libby out into the playing fields, sexually attacked and killed her, put her body into the river, and then run back to his car."

He told jurors Relowicz's "sole purpose" was to "silence her screams" after he raped Libby.

The prosecutor added: "Her screams, and the scratches that she clearly managed to land on the face of the defendant as she fought him off, are just part of the evidence that establishes that she was raped by a man whose entire motivation for coming into contact with her that night was to take her away from safety to a remote area well known to him and there to subject her to his uncontrollable sexual urges.

"His very purpose in prowling the streets was in order to commit opportunistic sexual offences and the rape of Libby was just such an offence."

'HEIGHTENED SEXUAL AROUSAL'
The court was also told Relowicz returned to the playing fields in the early hours of the morning after Libby had vanished.

CCTV footage was said to have captured him standing with his knees bent performing a sex act on himself in the street.

He had also visited a 🤬🤬🤬🤬 site twice in the hours after Libby died and had been "in a state of heightened sexual arousal that night", jurors heard.

Two days later, on February 3, a used condom containing DNA matching Relowicz was discovered in the area.

After he was arrested, police found a pink holdall containing "trophies... taken in a series of sexually motivated burglaries", the court was told.

This included sex toys, photographs of young women and several pairs of women's knickers and thongs, it was said.

Mr Wright told jurors Relowicz had exposed himself to women and performed sex acts on himself in the street in the year before Libby's death.

He also allegedly watched them through their windows as they changed or had sex and swiped underwear and sex toys from women's homes.

The jury have been told Relowicz had pleaded guilty to nine sexually motivated offences, committed in the months before Libby Squire's death including voyeurism, outraging public decency and burglary.

Relowicz, who is using a Polish interpreter to watch proceedings, denies rape and murder.

Libby Squire screamed 'don't leave me' before she was 'raped and murdered'
 
  • #389
It's only just occurred to me that we're assuming PR 'disposed' of Libby's body that night. What if he hid her body initially and then returned much, much later... even days later...before his arrest, to put her in the river? He could have gone on foot - in the dead of night and avoided being caught on cctv.
When was he arrested? Was he then released?
 
  • #390
  • #391
Has there been any mention of the "yeast factory cctv" as it seems to read that cctv evidence is now complete?
Could that be the CCTV of his car?
 
  • #392
I think they will not suggest she committed suicide.
I think they will insist he left her on the field alive (maybe unconscious ) and she fell in to water by accident trying find way out in darkness . and tbf it could be possible
we see
I'm not sure it could. If you look at the videos posted earlier on here you would see that getting to the river would be quite difficult for someone who could barely walk on a flat, surfaced pavement and who had just been raped.

And if she was capable of getting up and walking she'd be capable of drowning.
 
  • #393
I totally agree i feel the time scale is very problematic..I think it fits far easier with him raping her and leaving her. Either way he is responsible for her death and I think his stalking and previous convictions will likely seal the deal for the prosecution..my problem is just because he is a horrendous sexual predator does not automatically mean he killed her with his own hands ...problem is with such an awful case like this are people likely to care as long as justice is done ..that may sound harsh but I do not know how else to describe it
Time is an issue if you're seeing rape and murder as sequential. If he raped her then murdered her. But the murder could have been the same time as the rape. Hand over mouth or round neck whilst Raping her. If he time for one he had time for the other.
 
  • #394
Basically- she's dead.

She was alive - he took her to the park - there is evidence of rape and then she's dead.

Not definatively from hypothermia.
Not definitively from drowning.
No serious injuries such as head trauma.

And yet she's dead and ended up in the water.

The logical explanation is that he killed her and put her in the water.
Not for me
More logical is that she "woke up " after he gone and accidentally fell in the river
Maybe didn't drown instantly maybe just lie there for a while and slowly drown when the river level rise and then water took her body away
For me isn't 100% clear that he murder her
Suffocate someone takes pretty long time she was screaming and then he was seein runing to the car just few min after last screem
If she was screaming she was able breathing, it is not that easy strangle someone it takes longer than 3min
 
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  • #395
Wednesday, January 20th:
*Trial continues (Day 4) (@ 10:30am UK) – UK – Liberty “Libby” Anna Squire (21) (last seen Jan. 31, 2019 outside Welly Club in Hull; found Mar. 20, 2019 from Grimsby Docks in the Humber Estuary) - *Pawel P. Relowicz (24/now 25) arrested (Feb. 6, 2019 on suspicion of abduction) officially charged (Oct. 30, 2019) with murder & rape. No plea entered yet. Not guilty plea entered on Jan. 12, 2021.
Trial began on Jan. 12, 2021. Trial will be in Sheffield. Richard Wright QC will lead, Mr. Woolfall prosecutor. Oliver Saxby QC for defense. Trial expected to last 6 weeks. Jury: 5 men & 7 women.
Was originally charged (18/3/19 & 10/5/19) with 5 counts of burglary, 4 counts of voyeurism, 3 counts of outraging public decency & 1 count of receiving stolen goods. On Aug. 12, 2019 plead guilty to 9 charges including voyeurism (4 counts), outraging public decency (2 counts) & burglary (3 counts). Relowicz jailed for eight & a half years.

Trial Day 1-3 (12/1 - 18/1/21) reference post #157 here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 *ARREST* #19

Jan. 19th Tuesday, Trial Day 4: Justice Lambert is now sitting, Pawel Relowicz has been brought to the dock & is accompanied by 3 dock officers. The jury are being brought up into the court. Expecting Detective Constable Grandidge, the officer in charge of the CCTV footage in the case, to continue his evidence this morning. Witnesses: After the footage of Libby outside The Welly, the jury was shown an interactive map of where both Libby & Relowicz were at the same time. Det. Constable Grandidge showed clips from CCTV from that night (posts #167, #170, #174, #176, #178-#180) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 *ARREST* #19
Continued posts #182-#183, #186, #189, #193 & #196) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 *ARREST* #19
Det. Constable Grandidge recalled to the witness box after lunch. The jury was shown CCTV footage of Relowicz’s car leaving Oak Road for the final time & travelling to Goddard Avenue (#216); Relowicz seen masturbating in Newland Avenue (#219) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 *ARREST* #19
Det. Constable Grandidge says Relowicz was caught on camera ‘looking for condom' (#221 & 223); CCTV shown Relowicz's movements the next day (#224); Mr. Wright says the court will hear from a friend Relowicz was with that day tomorrow. Defence questions Det. Constable Grandidge (#228); Relowicz told police he was 'scared' during first arrest; the jury is being told about when Relowicz was first arrested on February 6, five days after Libby’s disappearance. Statement by PC Trevor Harling (arrested Relowicz) (#236) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 *ARREST* #19
First police interview: 'I didn't abduct her'. Former Detective Constable, Claire Jackson (#244); The second police interview the next day (#249 & #258) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 *ARREST* #19
Relowicz told police he thought she would 'vomit in his car' (#266); Relowicz told police he stopped at Oak Road so Libby could be sick (#275 & #276, #278-279) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 *ARREST* #19
Relowicz confirmed Libby was the girl who had been in his car (#282, #284) here:
UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 *ARREST* #19
Today's proceedings have now ended. Trial continues on Wednesday, 20/1/21.


 
  • #396
Time is an issue if you're seeing rape and murder as sequential. If he raped her then murdered her. But the murder could have been the same time as the rape. Hand over mouth or round neck whilst Raping her. If he time for one he had time for the other.

I agree ..but to "rape and run" cuts the time to get her to and into the river

Hence possibly gaining an extra minute making the timescale very slightly more "comfortable"
 
  • #397
I think we have to be careful about speculating explanations for each piece of circumstantial evidence

The correct approach is first to consider what the prosecution has proven evidentially - this is not BARD standard. Rather on each point, simply ask what evidence you accept.

Then examining the evidence as a whole, the jury may draw natural and obvious inferences. As libby died one way or the other, it doesn't matter so much how she died (strangulation or drowning) but rather if we can infer he did it one way or the other.

At that point, if the jury infers he did the murder - they must ask the BARD question. Is there any other reasonable possibility? This cannot be mere speculation - it must be a version that arises from the evidence at trial.

My problem with "maybe libby jumped in the river after the rape" is that there is one person in the world who knows if this is true or not. The accused. And he has not told the police or the court (so far) that this is what happened. And why would we believe him when he lied about everything else?

Personally I am not prepared to speculate this into existence, if the one person who knows the truth, refuses to place that evidence into court.

Of course there is no burden on the accused to prove anything - but nor do jurors have to accept speculation from counsel as evidence.
 
  • #398
I think we have to be careful about speculating explanations for each piece of circumstantial evidence

The correct approach is first to consider what the prosecution has proven evidentially - this is not BARD standard. Rather on each point, simply ask what evidence you accept.

Then examining the evidence as a whole, the jury may draw natural and obvious inferences. As libby died one way or the other, it doesn't matter so much how she died (strangulation or drowning) but rather if we can infer he did it one way or the other.

At that point, if the jury infers he did the murder - they must ask the BARD question. Is there any other reasonable possibility? This cannot be mere speculation - it must be a version that arises from the evidence at trial.

My problem with "maybe libby jumped in the river after the rape" is that there is one person in the world who knows if this is true or not. The accused. And he has not told the police or the court (so far) that this is what happened. And why would we believe him when he lied about everything else?

Personally I am not prepared to speculate this into existence, if the one person who knows the truth, refuses to place that evidence into court.

Of course there is no burden on the accused to prove anything - but nor do jurors have to accept speculation from counsel as evidence.

I agree the jury will definitely be of mind he killed her one way or another..any speculation or thoughts at the moment are based only on some of the prosecution evidence
 
  • #399
Given the level of detail he's given about what happened when he stopped the car at Oak Park, I think this is when the rape took place (which fits in with his weird accounts of randomly talking about her underwear) He talks about having a wee (DNA evidence cover up), Libby being on her knees and crying the whole time. If that is true it means the screams that could be heard could be the journey from car to river whatever form that took. Either he was chasing her or man handling or trying to silence her etc. I think that would add more weight to him being the cause of her death if he raped her but then went into the park afterwards
 
  • #400
Hello. Another lurker here too.

I joined to agree with the above points. I know Oak Road pretty well (although not super well) and I would be surprised if he managed to get Libby into the park, rape her, get her in the river and be out in the 10 or so minutes. The river is close, but I don't think it's that close.

It's really dark there though and she may well have stumbled into the river afterwards trying to find her way out in her confused state. It's possible too, that if she was already feeling suicidal, she probably felt even worse after the rape and sadly, it may have felt like an option to take that route herself.

I remember saying at the time she went missing that the police must have been absolutely certain she met her fate in Oak Road as they focussed all of their searching there. Whatever happened to the poor girl that night, PR is absolutely responsible for her death one way or another.
I don't think she died accidentally on what little we know so far.

If there are typical signs of death by drowning and hypothermia it's because there are lots of people that have died from these causes. Evidence has built up. I'd imagine many would be drunk. Drunk people fall in rivers so intoxication will be a factor in identifying those causes even if it confuses things

If she stumbled into the river and didn't drown in a typical way that makes it unusual. Different to that body of evidence.

The experts can't discount it but I'd say it's likely that anyone capable of getting up and stumbling would show some obvious typical signs of drowning. Lots of people fall into rivers and the obvious cause of death is drowning.

And she didn't show the post mortem signs of having died of hypothermia. Again I imagine it's common for people to fall into freezing rivers and die of hypothermia. Therefore I guess, but don't know, that there are typical post mortem changes that allow scientists to identify that as a cause.

She didn't show those signs and while it can't be discounted it would, again, make it unusual.

The only scenario experts do not exclude or think would be unusual is asphyxiation. No obvious signs of that would be found in a body that had been in water that long. It would also be consistent with actions that could happen during a rape.

And the experts also say the results suggest she was dead or dying when she entered the river. IMO that means her body was not capable of drowning it was not capable of the slower closing down that happens with hypothermia. And the most likely reason would be because her body would no longer be capable of any reactions.

Those are just my opinions but her falling into a river just doesn't seem feasible if typical signs aren't there.
 
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