Found Deceased UK - Lindsay Birbeck, 47, Accrington, 12 Aug 2019 *Arrest* #3

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  • #141
Does anyone have any theories as to why the location of the attack (even the actual murder) wasn't found?

I find it a bit bizarre, especially when taking into account the undisputed evidence of the CCTV of Lindsay at 4.06pm wearing her distinctive coat and that same coat being sighted on a barbed wire fence just 14 minutes later off a path in the Coppice that she regularly took. :confused:

That is a pretty narrow time frame, especially when further time could be taken off to account for reaching that point in the path. The location can also be nailed down to a pretty accurate place.
It's not like it could be 'anywhere in the Coppice' and much shrugging of investigator's shoulders.
We don’t know if it was the same jacket, she was wearing a purple jacket with a red lining, I think the jacket that was seen by the dog walkers was red. It could possibly have been inside out but it’s not stated that it was her jacket.
 
  • #142
I found your info v helpful thanks. I have little experience personally of autism.

I would be really interested to know what you and @Angleterre think re the chances of a guilty verdict based on what has been heard so far?

For me, we know he moved the body which is undisputed fact. But without any other direct evidence of him carrying out the murder it seems it may hinge on whether the jury believe there is a chance the hooded man exists. And does that admit doubt?

I couldn't possibly say with the tiny amount of information that's been reported so far, without being in the courtroom. There's nothing at all that they've reported so far that indicates he committed a murder, except for that he's the only person we know to have been with her body. The fact he admits that but claims someone else murdered her...... If you were sending me out to deliberate right now I think I would be completely influenced by the thoughts of others in the jury room
 
  • #143
I'm also at a disadvantage to be able to discuss or theorize, because I'll match what little I know about this case, to my specific experiences with others. The same young man I discussed, works on a farm. His employers are always telling me he's unbelievable, if they give him a strimmer he will work and work until you tell him to stop. They've joked that he would strim his way to Scotland without stopping. I know that if I told him tonight I wanted the garden clearing by Tuesday, he would get up at 6am tomorrow, source every single tool he needed, and single handedly cut down every tree, bush, hedge, flower, weed and blade of grass by the time I arrive on Tuesday. No stopping for food, sleep, rest. Just literally focus on getting the job done that I had told him to do. Do exactly as he's been told, whatever it takes. No questions or complaints.

Very useful insights, presumably the defence will give evidence as to what level of autism he has.
 
  • #144
I think what happened was he phoned the non emergency nbr (101) as opposed to 999 for emergencies.

Even so, thats quite a wait. I reported a flooded road which was causing accidents at Christmas on 101 and waited about 5 minutes.

Edited nbr - confused it with nhs helpline!

If you ring the police non-emergency number I’ve found it’s not so much how long the police take to respond, although they will prioritise I guess, but more a case of how long before someone answers the call. I’ve had to call 3 or 4 times to get through in the past.
 
  • #145
I'm not quite sure how to write this, so bear with me while I try and get started.

I can't join in with any of the theorizing because it's been reported that the youth has autism.

Everything I see posters theorizing seems to be around the thinking of someone not on the spectrum. When apparently he is. We have no idea of his range of autism, all I can tell is that he has speech. That's it.

I'm trying to recall some of the things that stand out to me.

1. Him spending so much time alone on the coppice being unusual. No it isn't. All of the male youths I with with spend nearly all of their time alone, having as little communication with other people as possible. Some spending all of their time on a computer, and some spending equal time on a computer and outdoors. Whether on a computer or outdoors, their thoughts are completely solitary. For those that have speech, even at times when they are having conversation with others, the other party has to follow the conversation as it plays out in the mind of the person with autism, or they can't continue with the conversation.

(I mean no disrespect by using 'they', by 'they' I am referring to my recollection of each time I have supported young males who have autism, in a criminal investigation).

2. Trying to rationalise his actions. A person with autism has their own 'manual' that they live by. By 'manual', this is how I refer to their understanding of how life should be. You can't tell them any different. They will just think you are wrong. Autism is very matter-of-fact and most people on the spectrum don't have the capacity to accept that there are different ways for different people. Eg. A person who is noisy is wrong. They will not accept that that person is happy, or excited in that moment. They are just a bad person for being noisy. Noise is not acceptable according to the manual. This is one example, but it applies to their thinking about all aspects of human behaviour. You can add to their manual, but you can't change it.

3. Jonty Bravery being used as an example of a person with autism understanding the consequences of his actions, because he had reportedly said he wanted to kill someone, and had specifically said that he wanted to push someone off a high structure. This only shows that he had a plan of action. He knew what actions he wanted to carry out, but there is nothing that's been reported on that case which indicates he had any connections to the emotions or consequences on victims. Which most people on the autistic spectrum wouldn't.

4. It's very difficult to question someone with autism. You know the questions that you looking for answers to, but they don't understand why you are questioning, and due to the point I made about a conversation having to follow their own thoughts, don't cope well with questioning. They don't understand why you would be asking, because of course, the logical answers are all in the 'manual', which as far as they are concerned, we know. They would want to escape from a situation of being questioned. It's about one of the most anxiety- inducing situations they face.

To try and cover these points with a specific example, I'll tell you about the most recent arrest I have been part of. A young man with autism I know very well. Functions fairly independently. I have as good a relationship with him as anyone. He goes out for hours during the night. I don't know what he's doing for these hours. In the morning he'll show me pictures of the moon, pictures of car lights in the fog. So I can see some of the places he's been. I'll ask him what was he doing out late at night and he'll say something like "I mustn't cross the road when it's foggy Lucy because the car might not see me and bang" and then he'll walk away, because I've asked a question. He will go out for hours during the day and I know he is spending a lot of time in the bushes at the primary school. He tells me that there are often balls in the bushes and that's why he goes there, to look for them. He'll spend hours in there watching the children. You can imagine what people think when they see this, and he doesn't 'look' disabled. I ask him if he has a girlfriend and he says when he has a wife he will let me know, that there are lots of girls in the primary school and lots of girls in the college and who knows which one will be his wife. I try to explain to him that he mustn't look at the girls in the school because he is a man, so they can't be his wife, but again he walks away, as my opinion is nonsense according to his manual.

I know this has no relevance to this case, I just thought maybe for some who might not have been in a position to have experience of autism it might be a little helpful. I still can't give any answers though because each person has slight variations, and as I said, all I think I know about the person you are discussing in this case is that he has autism and speech. All the wondering about why he cut her shoes, you'll never come up with an answer. Because you're looking at it from your reasoning. He will have, what is to him, the perfectly logical answer as to why he did that, but I can guarantee you that no matter how long you think about it you are NEVER going to come up with what that is. Unless he tells us. It's in the manual. The one we don't have.

I notice that the other person on this forum who I know has a good insight into autism has gone very quiet also, they've probably been feeling as up against a wall as I have.
Great Post and very helpful. Well written for those of us that have little understanding of autism, provides useful insight. Thank you
 
  • #146
The thing that's perplexing me the most, is how on earth it happened that a fit lady came to be incapacitated in the middle of the afternoon, in the middle of the summer holidays, in what seems to be a popular walking spot, with no one hearing or seeing anything???

IF the jacket is hers, I'm trying to picture how it has been explained that you couldn't get to it from the path because of the brambles, you'd have to go through the field. Did she walk through the field? Or did someone use a story... 'my puppy's got stuck in the brambles', she took her jacket off so as not to snag it and went to help?
 
  • #147
Regarding the police response time, I don’t think it’s massively unusual. I’ve waited longer for a police response.
 
  • #148
I think alot of info is going to come out this week. There's still so many unanswered questions. Phone records are a big thing. Where is Lindsay's phone?! That's a big question. Is there info on that? Her keys was also missing. Clothing is missing. That could easily have been burnt tho I guess. There's just so much about this case that is mind boggling. I'm the same with going between guilty and not. I do hope he is made to give evidence and of he is guilty then why the heck did he do it!?

If it's the same place I walked past just before she was found there is a path through the coppice, it's under loads of trees. There there is a field full of brambles then another fence. That then would be where then out houses are on the map. U could easily of hid something in them brambles. If her coat was there on a fence it would be where the outhouses are and u couldn't get there unless u wanted to get ripped to shreds by the brambles.
I think this is where it's ment to have happened. But I'm not sure.

Moo
 
  • #149
We don’t know if it was the same jacket, she was wearing a purple jacket with a red lining, I think the jacket that was seen by the dog walkers was red. It could possibly have been inside out but it’s not stated that it was her jacket.

Though there is no way of knowing 100% that it was Lindsay's jacket.

It was put there and removed on or around the time of the murder by somebody and that person (or persons) has never come forward to eliminate themselves (the jacket) from the enquiry (as would be normal practice) so one can presume there is a very high possibility that it is still considered to be the jacket of the victim. The fact that the sighting still forms part of witness evidence is further testament to that.

So the questions are:
Who put the jacket on the barbed wire fence?
Who took the jacket off the barbed wire fence?

And if there was an innocent explanation: Why did nobody come forward to explain it?
 
  • #150
I do not understand why after the couple reported seeing the jacket,which could have been Lindsay's,that the police did not thoroughly search that area ,including the pub and surrounding sheds.
 
  • #151
I do not understand why after the couple reported seeing the jacket,which could have been Lindsay's,that the police did not thoroughly search that area ,including the pub and surrounding sheds.

It was only a missing person inquiry then. I remember the mountain rescue searching the coppice and they where not going into areas that where not disturbed. So that are was all fenced off and the fence was intacked. So there was never a need to search on the brambles. And I don't know if that dog walker reported it right away or not.

I will try to have a play with the maps and show where I was and where I think the jacket was.
 
  • #152
Though there is no way of knowing 100% that it was Lindsay's jacket.

It was put there and removed on or around the time of the murder by somebody and that person (or persons) has never come forward to eliminate themselves (the jacket) from the enquiry (as would be normal practice) so one can presume there is a very high possibility that it is still considered to be the jacket of the victim. The fact that the sighting still forms part of witness evidence is further testament to that.

So the questions are:
Who put the jacket on the barbed wire fence?
Who took the jacket off the barbed wire fence?

And if there was an innocent explanation: Why did nobody come forward to explain it?
Someone on here said the other day that maybe the jacket was placed there so the defendant knew where the body was, once he got there he moved the jacket
 
  • #153
The thing that's perplexing me the most, is how on earth it happened that a fit lady came to be incapacitated in the middle of the afternoon, in the middle of the summer holidays, in what seems to be a popular walking spot, with no one hearing or seeing anything???

IF the jacket is hers, I'm trying to picture how it has been explained that you couldn't get to it from the path because of the brambles, you'd have to go through the field. Did she walk through the field? Or did someone use a story... 'my puppy's got stuck in the brambles', she took her jacket off so as not to snag it and went to help?

It really makes you want to go there yourself to get a better idea of the place doesn't it? (though possibly not alone :eek:)

As I have a picture of a map in my head, but it might be very different in reality. I want to find out for sure.
 
  • #154
I think alot of info is going to come out this week. There's still so many unanswered questions. Phone records are a big thing. Where is Lindsay's phone?! That's a big question. Is there info on that? Her keys was also missing. Clothing is missing. That could easily have been burnt tho I guess. There's just so much about this case that is mind boggling. I'm the same with going between guilty and not. I do hope he is made to give evidence and of he is guilty then why the heck did he do it!?

If it's the same place I walked past just before she was found there is a path through the coppice, it's under loads of trees. There there is a field full of brambles then another fence. That then would be where then out houses are on the map. U could easily of hid something in them brambles. If her coat was there on a fence it would be where the outhouses are and u couldn't get there unless u wanted to get ripped to shreds by the brambles.
I think this is where it's ment to have happened. But I'm not sure.

Moo

I’m interested about the phone.

Apparently at the time she went missing it was stated her phone was flat.
We know this isn’t true as she recieved but didn’t open a message at 4:30. Unusually the police haven’t stated when it was switched off.

I’m wondering if they know when, and approximately where it was switched off, and that will come as part of the evidence.
 
  • #155
Someone on here said the other day that maybe the jacket was placed there so the defendant knew where the body was, once he got there he moved the jacket

He was already on the coppice at that time.

I’m not sure too much can be held on it, as there’s no confirmation it was a jacket, let alone Lindsay’s, just red material.

I think by the time the police were alerted to it possibly being connected, as the dog walkers at the time wouldn’t have known she was missing when they saw it, it was gone. But I imagine that area was well searched in the days following her disappearance. Especially as the area was paced out too.
 
  • #156
Someone on here said the other day that maybe the jacket was placed there so the defendant knew where the body was, once he got there he moved the jacket

Ok. Let's say that that is what happened, it doesn't change my original query.

As whether it was Lindsay's jacket or a jacket the attacker placed there - it potentially marked the spot of the crime (at the very least it was a point of interest in a 'high risk' missing person case) - and seemingly wasn't investigated properly.
 
  • #157
Ok. Let's say that that is what happened, it doesn't change my original query.

As whether it was Lindsay's jacket or a jacket the attacker placed there - it potentially marked the spot of the crime (at the very least it was a point of interest in a 'high risk' missing person case) - and seemingly wasn't investigated properly.

How do you know it wasn’t? The ‘jacket’ was seen by a dog walker in the area shortly after Lindsay was there. She wasn’t missing at that point.
When they realised she was missing and the possible link it was reported, and the area searched.
 
  • #158
Ok. Let's say that that is what happened, it doesn't change my original query.

As whether it was Lindsay's jacket or a jacket the attacker placed there - it potentially marked the spot of the crime (at the very least it was a point of interest in a 'high risk' missing person case) - and seemingly wasn't investigated properly.
The jacket had already been and gone before the searches started the next day
 
  • #159
Accrington
BB5 2DQ
خرائط ‪Google‬‏‏

Really don't know if that link will work but if it does. The red marker is where I was out walking one day. The field between the line of trees whew I was and the road isn't as far as it looks. I think this is where the jacket has ment to have been seen? And them out houses could be where she was being hidden, killed. U can get there anyway he's used. Also explains the plints he's dragged the Wheely bin over.
 
  • #160
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