Found Deceased UK - Lindsay Birbeck, 47, Accrington, 12 Aug 2019 *Arrest* #3

[SpursGyal]

Has it been reported by the forensic pathologist as to wether the ‘hyoid’ bone was broken because even if full decomposition has taken place, the bones will still be recovered and that is what is usually indicative of forceful strangulation

I believe so, she said it was the most severe she had seen in 25 years. I’ll try to find the court transcript.

 

[Angleterre]

Other than a mention of a few messages we haven’t had much information regarding mobile phones at all.

I believe she was wearing a FIT bit too, so I would hope prosecution will divulge more on that.

There was recently a case on here but I cannot recall which , where the victim who was murdered , was wearing a Fitbit and there was an awful lot of information that came out about the usefulness of Fitbits during major enquires and the information that can be recovered.

 

[Angleterre]

Could anyone clarify, if the Jury return Not Guilty, does he walk free?

I was under the impression he would, but others have suggested they can still convict for the movement and concealment of her body.

It depends what he is charged with
If he is only charged in the first with Murder and it’s ‘not guilty ‘ then that is not guilty of murder and he will walk free however, if he is charged in the alternative with offences around interference with evidence and concealment and such like then the jury will be asked if they have reached a verdict on those specific offences and if they are not guilty too then he is free but if he is charged in the alternative with those aforementioned and the jury returns a guilty verdict then he will be sentenced according to the sentencing guidelines around that specific offence that he has been found guilty of

 

[SpursGyal]

‘The jury have been told that Lindsay sustained a fractured cartilage in her neck.

When asked by the prosecutor how difficult it is to fracture, Dr Carter said: “In order to fracture these structures they require significant force.

“In summary there appeared to be crushing of the larynx. That appeared to be crushed.”’


And

‘
I've never seen such extensive crushing injuries in 25 years'
Dr Naomi Carter said in her 25 years experience as a Home Office pathologist she had ‘never seen such extensive crushing damage to an entire larynx’.

She said there was ‘gross disruption of the deep neck structures’.

The jury was told that it was ‘unusually severe for simple compression of the neck’ for strangulation to be the ‘only explanation’.

Lindsay Birbeck murder trial at Preston Crown Court - updates

 

[SpursGyal]

He is on a single charge of Murder.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Personally Hongkongphoey I think it is tenuous. Irrespective as to if the SIO and murder team believe that he is in fact the perpetrator, unless it is shown to be beyond all reasonable doubt , which from what I am aware of so far, and unless the SIO and his or her team can provide the evidence to show his actual involvement in the murder,wether that be by witness testimony, CCTV , DNA, Fingerprints or via telephone location services etc then I personally can’t see how, at this moment in the trial , they can say that he murdered LB and there is no question that he is responsible, beyond all reasonable doubt. That being the case then I can’t see that it will be a guilty verdict . But who knows... stranger things have happened.
The one thing that I will draw attention to is that in the UK the double jeopardy law
is no longer in being so therefore, if he was found not guilty ,then further down the line, evidence appears that wasn’t previously available at trial , then if it is classed as new evidence, he can be subjected to a retrial.
So all is not lost . I haven’t been able to follow the trial thus far as I’ve been back and forth from the hospital all of last week so I am unsure where ‘autism’ comes into it and to what degree , but what I will say is that if there is such an issue due to a recognised medical condition then the judge will Be professional enough to consult with experts in that field if it is deemed necessary for fair and equitable justice all round . The judge would then give a directive to the jury and ask that they follow that direction without being swayed either way by the prosecution or the defence and to remove all emotion where applicable and deal with facts only . I am not sure if that helps at all to answer your question/s?

As always yes, thank you

 

[LucyRocket]

Has it been reported by the forensic pathologist as to wether the ‘hyoid’ bone was broken because even if full decomposition has taken place, the bones will still be recovered and that is what is usually indicative of forceful strangulation

She didn't make any mention of the hyoid bone (that was reported in media). This is what was reported, from her evidence;

'significant force' was used to fracture her neck.

..... she had ‘never seen such extensive crushing damage to an entire larynx’ and could not rule out any sexual activity or the possibility that Lindsay had been 'smothered' due to the levels of decomposition.

 

[Angleterre]

She didn't make any mention of the hyoid bone (that was reported in media). This is what was reported, from her evidence;

'significant force' was used to fracture her neck.

..... she had ‘never seen such extensive crushing damage to an entire larynx’ and could not rule out any sexual activity or the possibility that Lindsay had been 'smothered' due to the levels of decomposition.

Interestingly enough, I hope that I am not breaking any rules by quoting Wikipedia but see below from a world renowned forensic scientist
“Fractures of the hyoid bone are almost always associated with manual strangulation," Wecht said. "Because a hand gets up high underneath the chin of the victim." Wecht said that multiple breaks or fractures in neck bones are rare to find in suicidal hangings.15 Aug 2019”

edited to add that a fracture to the larynx usually is a fracture to the hyoid

 

[Legally Bland]

There was recently a case on here but I cannot recall which , where the victim who was murdered , was wearing a Fitbit and there was an awful lot of information that came out about the usefulness of Fitbits during major enquires and the information that can be recovered.

Molly Tibbets?

ETA: Mollie, not Molly.

 

[MusicalMonkey]

Without going into too much detail and giving away trade secrets, there are many ways of tracing positions and yes you are right that with pings it depends which tower it pings from but, although it is very time consuming and the mobile phone companies don’t want to do it because of the work involved ( plus their remit is that they only have to be obligated to do it if it’s a matter of life and death and in this case their argument will be that she’s deceased so it doesn’t fit the parameters), it can be done and there is a lot more that can be done than the ordinary member of the public is aware of. However, like everything, cost becomes a factor.

The mobile phone companies are loaded (just like the UK government). All these excuses about costs and no magic money tree is rubbish. It's the distribution of the wealth that's the problem.

As for the phone. Can it be tracked when the phone is off? I know it can be done if a phone has the right software 'hack' on it. But not sure if it can be done retrospectively to any device (I would say no). I know the tech is there though.

The account of the trial I read said that a Whatsapp message sent to Lindsay's phone at 4.30pm on the day of her disappearance wasn't delivered.
Which would indicate that the phone was out of battery, or had been turned off sometime before then. The last known time that she used the phone was at 3.41pm (before she left her house) when she replied to a message from her boyfriend.
That's all us 'websleuths' have to go on so far. . . .

I should think at the very least they'll know when (and where) the phone went 'dead'. I would also think that living so close to where she went walking Lindsay wouldn't have taken a phone that was almost out of battery with her.
Someone on here said her phone was 'dead'. But as far as I know that hasn't been reported as being official.

 

[Angleterre]

Molly Tibbets?

ETA: Mollie, not Molly.

Yes I think you’re right x

 

[Angleterre]

The mobile phone companies are loaded (just like the UK government). All these excuses about costs and no magic money tree is rubbish. It's the distribution of the wealth that's the problem.

As for the phone. Can it be tracked when the phone is off? I know it can be done if a phone has the right software 'hack' on it. But not sure if it can be done retrospectively to any device (I would say no). I know the tech is there though.

The account of the trial I read said that a Whatsapp message sent to Lindsay's phone at 4.30pm on the day of her disappearance wasn't delivered.
Which would indicate that the phone was out of battery, or had been turned off sometime before then. The last known time that she used the phone was at 3.41pm (before she left her house) when she replied to a message from her boyfriend.
That's all us 'websleuths' have to go on so far. . . .

I should think at the very least they'll know when the phone went 'dead'. I would also think that living so close to where she went walking Lindsay wouldn't have taken a phone that was almost out of battery with her.
Someone on here said her phone was 'dead'. But as far as I know that hasn't been reported as being official.

WhatsApp also won’t deliver when it is switched to airplane mode and it doesn’t have to be switched off to not deliver a message.
As to wether a phone can be traced when switched off, the official answer that you will be given is no it can’t be traced when switched off but the only comment that I will make on that is anything is possible

 

[Skigh]

I understand. It was somebody that posted "maybe she saw someone out her window near the shed and went to invetigate".

I posted that comment as I was trying to find a reason Lindsay went along a route which local posters said was muddy and difficult to go along,
when she could have taken another way to go if she was just out for exercise.

 

[Angleterre]

She didn't make any mention of the hyoid bone (that was reported in media). This is what was reported, from her evidence;

'significant force' was used to fracture her neck.

..... she had ‘never seen such extensive crushing damage to an entire larynx’ and could not rule out any sexual activity or the possibility that Lindsay had been 'smothered' due to the levels of decomposition.

Can you recall how many days after LB went missing that RM was arrested?

 

[Angleterre]

She didn't make any mention of the hyoid bone (that was reported in media). This is what was reported, from her evidence;

'significant force' was used to fracture her neck.

..... she had ‘never seen such extensive crushing damage to an entire larynx’ and could not rule out any sexual activity or the possibility that Lindsay had been 'smothered' due to the levels of decomposition.

Can you recall how many days after LB went missing that RM was arrested?

 

[Angleterre]

She didn't make any mention of the hyoid bone (that was reported in media). This is what was reported, from her evidence;

'significant force' was used to fracture her neck.

..... she had ‘never seen such extensive crushing damage to an entire larynx’ and could not rule out any sexual activity or the possibility that Lindsay had been 'smothered' due to the levels of decomposition.

Can you recall how many days after LB went missing that RM was arrested?

 

[Legally Bland]

Can you recall how many days after LB went missing that RM was arrested?

15

 

[SpursGyal]

15 Days I believe.

Missing on the 12th August, Arrested on 27th.

 

[The Truth Is]

Yes I accept that however hers may have been even more so because she was fighting for her life , he wasn’t .
I don’t see how she could have been taken from behind to strangle her as it was a foot or knee used , unless you mean that she was taken from behind first and pulled to the ground
But even then - very risky in daylight and potentially shouting out for help and using what to take her from behind ? Can’t be just his arm as not strong enough or tall enough so then maybe used a rope or piece of material in which case there would be ligature strangulation grazes on her throat but that’s not been made mention of.
Personally , for me ( hindsight is a wonderful thing) but there appears to have been things IMOO that I would have done as the SIO , which either haven’t been considered or have been considered but discounted as not progressing the enquiry.
I mean I would be looking at all the phone numbers hitting off the local masts and using analysts to look for number sequence patterns . Yes it is a lot of work but when it’s a murder enquiry , it gets done !
What about topography? Was that looked into ? There are experts at the National Police Training college who can come out to scenes and can suggest experts that can be considered for different aspects of the crime - was this done ? And also, there are documented patterns ( just like with crimes against children as to the distance away you are likely to find them and within what timeframe ), that have been laid down as to the likelihood of how far someone would travel etc and it’s done with the help of forensic psychologist etc - was this done? I know I’m looking at ideal world situations but it all has to be done properly and if it’s not done then it needs to be documented as to why.
Currently for me there are too many holes
And yes the prosecution would have disclosed everything at this point so there will be no rabbits pulled from hats .
In relation to the BS other person, if this person was not mentioned during interviews or at the charge stage then the caution is such that an inference may be drawn if they do not mention when questioned, something which they later rely on in court and that inference could be one of guilt .
Re Decomposition of LB - we are presuming that due to the time frame that full decomposition was in effect however every case is different. For example, I was present at the post Mortems of Brian Blackwells parents ( he , the son , bludgeoned them both to death in 2005? I think it was in Lydiate, Merseyside) and they had been left in the home whilst Brian Blackwell took his girlfriend on a trip to the USA for 3 weeks and when he returned, he believed that their bodies would have been found and that authorities would not consider him responsible because he was out of the country. However , they hadn’t been found so he reported a burglary at the house and said he found his parents dead . Both Mr and Mrs Blackwell were fully mummified and had not decomposed on the outside at all .
So we don’t really know the condition of LB body and what evidence was retrieved or retrievable. Again all MOO

I do actually believe that he probably came out from the trees behind her and possibly got her maybe like a sleeper hold and possibly dragged her to the ground and then the severe force was used to kill her. I may be in the minority that believes that he was certainly strong enough to do this to a woman of her size. Just because somebody appears skinny doesnt mean they arent strong.

Regarding the idea of her shouting, if somebody pulls hard enough on your throat area, you wont be able to scream or even talk, you will just pass out. Also you mention about it being during the day and whether he would do that, yes totally he would, he moved a dead body on a Saturday afternoon in a bin and buried it during the day too. To me this explaination is way more plausible than the story he come up with.

Its good to have difference of opinion and this what makes the forum interesting to hear others views.

 

[LucyRocket]

Yes I accept that however hers may have been even more so because she was fighting for her life , he wasn’t .
I don’t see how she could have been taken from behind to strangle her as it was a foot or knee used , unless you mean that she was taken from behind first and pulled to the ground
But even then - very risky in daylight and potentially shouting out for help and using what to take her from behind ? Can’t be just his arm as not strong enough or tall enough so then maybe used a rope or piece of material in which case there would be ligature strangulation grazes on her throat but that’s not been made mention of.
Personally , for me ( hindsight is a wonderful thing) but there appears to have been things IMOO that I would have done as the SIO , which either haven’t been considered or have been considered but discounted as not progressing the enquiry.
I mean I would be looking at all the phone numbers hitting off the local masts and using analysts to look for number sequence patterns . Yes it is a lot of work but when it’s a murder enquiry , it gets done !
What about topography? Was that looked into ? There are experts at the National Police Training college who can come out to scenes and can suggest experts that can be considered for different aspects of the crime - was this done ? And also, there are documented patterns ( just like with crimes against children as to the distance away you are likely to find them and within what timeframe ), that have been laid down as to the likelihood of how far someone would travel etc and it’s done with the help of forensic psychologist etc - was this done? I know I’m looking at ideal world situations but it all has to be done properly and if it’s not done then it needs to be documented as to why.
Currently for me there are too many holes
And yes the prosecution would have disclosed everything at this point so there will be no rabbits pulled from hats .
In relation to the BS other person, if this person was not mentioned during interviews or at the charge stage then the caution is such that an inference may be drawn if they do not mention when questioned, something which they later rely on in court and that inference could be one of guilt .
Re Decomposition of LB - we are presuming that due to the time frame that full decomposition was in effect however every case is different. For example, I was present at the post Mortems of Brian Blackwells parents ( he , the son , bludgeoned them both to death in 2005? I think it was in Lydiate, Merseyside) and they had been left in the home whilst Brian Blackwell took his girlfriend on a trip to the USA for 3 weeks and when he returned, he believed that their bodies would have been found and that authorities would not consider him responsible because he was out of the country. However , they hadn’t been found so he reported a burglary at the house and said he found his parents dead . Both Mr and Mrs Blackwell were fully mummified and had not decomposed on the outside at all .
So we don’t really know the condition of LB body and what evidence was retrieved or retrievable. Again all MOO

So much of a muddle of non-evidence to wade through. That's what replying to this post has made me realise!

Ok, here goes. In my understanding....

Your first paragraph has not, and will not, be covered, because he didn't do it.

Phone numbers hitting off masts wouldn't give us any more information than we readily have, because we know where everybody was and at what times, this is not disputed.

A forensic botanist, Dr Mark Spencer, has given evidence. Google for details.

Apparently, in his first interview, the accused answered 'no comment' throughout. In the second interview, he produced a prepared statement which introduced the third party.

Opportunities to gather evidence at an earlier opportunity were definitely missed. Members of the public had concerns which they reported to the police, and those concerns were ruled out to be unrelated. The most obvious being that a member of the public saw the wheelie bin in-situ at the cemetery, an officer responded and said it wasn't important and authorised its removal to a storage facility. Lindsay's body was hidden 6 metres away. How much difference this will have made, we'll never know