Found Deceased UK - Lindsay Birbeck, 47, Accrington, 12 Aug 2019 *Arrest* #3

[jamjim]

13:01
Adjourned for lunch
The trial has now been adjourned for lunch.

The jury will return to court at 2pm when the prosecution case will continue.

Lindsay Birbeck murder trial at Preston Crown Court - updates

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Hi all thanks for updates. Catching up briefly. I dont feel sorry for the witness from the coppice. She gave a seemingly truthful account of what she saw. She couldnt do more than that really and her eyesight is what it is. No doubt a horrible ordeal for her attending court tho, which I do feel for anyone in that position. Her statement is key tho as it throws doubt over the whole defence tactic. So either it was some other random person loitering in the woods or it was the defendant. Or she made it up (I dont think that). Def casts doubt for me.

I hope the trainer description will help.

 

[MusicalMonkey]

She's seen that Lindsay was missing and obviously thought I better tell the police about it. It's sad it's not been delt with right away and she's been made to feel rubbish in court because she's had to fill a form in online. It won't sound urgent if it's in writing.

This is often the benefit of a decent 'solicitor'. Even given the same case evidence and witnesses, the particular professional involved can make all the difference.

 

[LancashireLad]

Legal Aid?

I suspect he's top dollar.

Mark Fenhalls QC - 23 Essex Street

Top notch South East barrister by sounds of it

 

[MusicalMonkey]

13:01
Adjourned for lunch
The trial has now been adjourned for lunch.

The jury will return to court at 2pm when the prosecution case will continue.

Lindsay Birbeck murder trial at Preston Crown Court - updates

I have a couple of queries about the jury.

Firstly, I understand the selection process: A larger group randomly chosen (supposedly as a fair representation of the people) then through a process they are whittled down to 12 (people can also put valid reasons down why they can't attend and hence omit themselves).
Though in this case there are 11 females and 1 male - which stands out immediately as being massively overbalanced regarding gender and in no way does it even come close to being 'representative of the people'.

Secondly, has anyone ever done any jury service here?
I'm just wondering what happens during the 1 hour lunch period and breaks etc.
Is it usual for the jury to all have lunch together and discuss the case etc.?

 

[MusicalMonkey]

This defence lawyer will not be cheap!!

I know. That's kind of what I was getting at. Who is paying? Is it a Legal Aid case, or is the defendant able to afford it because of,..... let's say 'family connections'?

I know the Tory government brought it yet more dodgy laws regarding Legal Aid in order to further screw over 'the little person'. But I think if you're facing some kind of criminal charges it's still possible to get Legal Aid.

 

[MusicalMonkey]

The lad looks tall in the video and in all honesty kids these days look alot older than there are. I've seen many a people and thought there in there 20s where there only a teenager

Indeed. In fact I believe this is the main reason why the 'Challenge 25' alcohol thing was brought in in recent years.

Back in the day any 14 year old with 'buff fluff' could pass for 18+ and get served at the off license (some even in pubs). And certain ethnicities can almost have a full beard by around aged 15.

The point is. It's always been difficult to tell certain people's ages, and still is.

 

[Mommysleuth11]

I have a couple of queries about the jury.

Firstly, I understand the selection process: A larger group randomly chosen (supposedly as a fair representation of the people) then through a process they are whittled down to 12 (people can also put valid reasons down why they can't attend and hence omit themselves).
Though in this case there are 11 females and 1 male - which stands out immediately as being massively overbalanced regarding gender and in no way does it even come close to being 'representative of the people'.

Secondly, has anyone ever done any jury service here?
I'm just wondering what happens during the 1 hour lunch period and breaks etc.
Is it usual for the jury to all have lunch together and discuss the case etc.?

I served on a Jury many years ago. The set up was a huge Jury room (for all Jurors, not just specific case), with a canteen inside (and a smoking booth lol) and all Jurors assembled there every morning and were called out from there. We would return there for rest breaks and lunches but were also free to leave the building during those times. The only time we were sent to the deliberation room amd segregated was once deliberations began and we were sent out to consider a vedict. Until that point you couldnt discuss the case with anyone.

 

[MusicalMonkey]

Hi all thanks for updates. Catching up briefly. I dont feel sorry for the witness from the coppice. She gave a seemingly truthful account of what she saw. She couldnt do more than that really and her eyesight is what it is. No doubt a horrible ordeal for her attending court tho, which I do feel for anyone in that position. Her statement is key tho as it throws doubt over the whole defence tactic. So either it was some other random person loitering in the woods or it was the defendant. Or she made it up (I dont think that). Def casts doubt for me.

I hope the trainer description will help.

On the contrary. I'd say that an 'unidentified man' seen loitering in the woods fits in with the defence's 'Hooded Man' story.

From what she said and how the defence barrister used it, at this stage she appears to have been a 'good witness for the defence'.
Assuming the 'V shaped trainers' can't be linked to the defendant,

 

[Legally Bland]

I can't believe I've spent time trying to zoom in on his trainers, looking for an upside-down 'V'. And as I went to save the video I saw I did the exact same thing with Ben Lacomba's shoes .

They look like they're falling apart, other than that I can't make anything out. It's probably not worth watching, and may well not be the same trainers anyway, but here's the video:

 

[Alyce]

I have a couple of queries about the jury.

Firstly, I understand the selection process: A larger group randomly chosen (supposedly as a fair representation of the people) then through a process they are whittled down to 12 (people can also put valid reasons down why they can't attend and hence omit themselves).
Though in this case there are 11 females and 1 male - which stands out immediately as being massively overbalanced regarding gender and in no way does it even come close to being 'representative of the people'.

Secondly, has anyone ever done any jury service here?
I'm just wondering what happens during the 1 hour lunch period and breaks etc.
Is it usual for the jury to all have lunch together and discuss the case etc.?

I was thinking about this earlier - the balance of female and male.
Initially there were about 40 potential jurors, reduced to 18 after they had completed forms to say what they could or could not commit to - ie; had a holiday coming up, work issues etc.

What if, the original 40 were an even split of 20 male, 20 female...but - after various people not being able to commit to this particular trial - they were left with the final 18, of which 17 were female.
If that were the case, then they have no choice but to go with the 11 / 1 mix.

 

[Thelastleg]

I agree Doris - I am the same if out walking alone, always checking who is around me, particularly if I'm in a park or common area with trees, bushes, places where someone could hide.
Also I don't have an issue with her age guess - from the little I have seen of the defendant in those bin pics I would put him older than 16. And I have the benefit of a pic that I can look at again and again to assess his age, she only had a few glimpses, some of them side on.
Same with the height. If she was feeling a bit wary and apprehensive, she is not going to be accurately working out exactly how tall he is.
I think her evidence about him pulling up as though he had been running is quite significant. To me, that says he was running to get closer to her, but stopped when he realised she was aware of him.

None of the above means it was definitely the defendant of course but I think her evidence is fairly good, despite the Defence QC attempt to discredit it ( which he has done very well ).

I noticed that the witness Zoe Braithwaite didn't mention a hood/hoodie. This person was obviously not concerned about being seen. I wonder if the man the defendant says is responsible for the murder would not try and disguise himself to do the actual killing but would keep his identity hidden when asking the defendant to move the body. JMO

 

[sunflower22]

On the contrary. I'd say that an 'unidentified man' seen loitering in the woods fits in with the defence's 'Hooded Man' story.

From what she said and how the defence barrister used it, at this stage she appears to have been a 'good witness for the defence'.
Assuming the 'V shaped trainers' can't be linked to the defendant,

I think the defendants trainers which was removed from his home would have been amongst the ones shown to the witness by the police and she didn’t recognise any of them.

 

[MusicalMonkey]

I can't believe I've spent time trying to zoom in on his trainers, looking for an upside-down 'V'. And as I went to save the video I saw I did the exact same thing with Ben Lacomba's shoes .

They look like they're falling apart, other than that I can't make anything out. It's probably not worth watching, and may well not be the same trainers anyway, but here's the video:

That's the CCTV footage from 5 days after the murder isn't it?

I wonder if the defendant was wearing the same trainers in all the other CCTV footage captured of him over the various days. Including up and around the area of the 'traveller site'.

 

[jamjim]

14:12
Welcome back
The trial is now resuming after the lunch break.

The prosecution are resuming their case.

Lindsay Birbeck murder trial at Preston Crown Court - updates

 

[jamjim]

14:15
Teacher from defendant's school
The jury are now hearing from a teacher at the defendant’s school.

Because of reporting restrictions in the case we cannot name the school or the teacher giving evidence.

Lindsay Birbeck murder trial at Preston Crown Court - updates

 

[MusicalMonkey]

I was thinking about this earlier - the balance of female and male.
Initially there were about 40 potential jurors, reduced to 18 after they had completed forms to say what they could or could not commit to - ie; had a holiday coming up, work issues etc.

What if, the original 40 were an even split of 20 male, 20 female...but - after various people not being able to commit to this particular trial - they were left with the final 18, of which 17 were female.
If that were the case, then they have no choice but to go with the 11 / 1 mix.

Yes, I had that in mind.

Though it perhaps shows up flaws in the system.

Does anyone know if 'work commitments' is an acceptable reason for not attending jury service?

I understand that nobody can 'make you attend' if you simply don't want to do it

 

[jamjim]

14:20
Defendant at school
The teacher has described the defendant at school as ‘very quiet’.

He said he would mainly give yes, no or don’t know answers.

The teacher said: “If you started a conversation with him it was very difficult to do that.”

Lindsay Birbeck murder trial at Preston Crown Court - updates

 

[jamjim]

14:22
Defendant preferred outdoors
The teacher said the defendant preferred outdoors and practical activities.

When asked by prosecutor David McLachlan QC if he was ‘fit and able to do it’ he agreed saying: “He was always good at walking. He’s a strong lad.”

Lindsay Birbeck murder trial at Preston Crown Court - updates

 

[Alyce]

I think the defendants trainers which was removed from his home would have been amongst the ones shown to the witness by the police and she didn’t recognise any of them.

Trainers and any other items would not have been taken from defendant's home until at least August 27, possiby a day later. Plenty of time for the actual clothes and trainers to have been disposed of.