UK - Lucy Letby arrested on suspicion of murder/attempted murder of a number of babies, 2018

[Jsizzle]

Just stumbled upon this thread today. First I’ve heard of this case! I’ve tried to read/skim and even did some googling. But does it say anywhere HOW she would have killed or tried to kill the babies? It says she (allegedly) killed them but I can’t find out how.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Just stumbled upon this thread today. First I’ve heard of this case! I’ve tried to read/skim and even did some googling. But does it say anywhere HOW she would have killed or tried to kill the babies? It says she (allegedly) killed them but I can’t find out how.

The police/prosecution are being very tight-lipped about everything.

I'm extremely surprised by how few people have heard abut this, to be honest. Most people I've mentioned it to have no clue of it.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Well, as Whitehall 1212 (who seems to have far more experience of serious criminal investigations than anyone here, especially suspicious hospital deaths) has said, that is not necessarily the case!

Being arrested, even on very serious charges, is not always necessarily very strong evidence of guilt. It merely means that the police have enough evidence/suspicion to arrest you. Indeed, it is not always a bad thing for the arrestee as certain protective statutes (such as PACE, bail provisions, etc) become immediately relevant. A now retired cop who was old enough the remember the situation pre-PACE was very adamant in telling me that if the police ever tried to call you in for a private chat about a serious crime then make sure that arrest you first. It also protects their investigation - wasn't there a recent case of a murder prosecution falling apart because the cop in charged spoke to the suspect before he should have done or while he wasn't arrested or something?

Yep murder of Becky Godden-Edwards by Christopher Halliwell. SIO Detective Sergeant Steve Fulcher arrested Haliwell on suspicion of abduction but failed to caution him or provide access to a solicitor, instead taking him to the place to locate the body of Becky

DS Fulchers actions were a breach of PACE. The issue with breaches of PACE is that all subsequent evidence can be ruled inadmissible. This is the reason detectives who investigate serious crime really understand what PACE says and follow it by the book.

Many defence cases are based on breaches of procedure, particularly when the evidence is overwhelming.

 

[Eloise]

At each point of arrest she was still sub justice ...usually the minute a court case is over the press release numerous stories from people they know.
Granted I'm surprised there's not much on Facebook but imo that may be more down to her social circles.
Hospital staff are forbidden by their code of conduct from commenting on Facebook which would have been a big part of her life.

We know a lot about Beverley Allit now ...but how much did we know about her sub justice?
Also I think we have to take into account the time distance between now and Allit
Sub justice rulings are much tougher now than back then

*sub judice

Those rules apply to the media, which yes includes social media, technically. But I've delved into all forms of social media and forums, including places with very lax moderation - where one can usually find people talking about things they're not supposed to be - and can't find anything. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean anything at all. It could just mean people with negative opinions and/or experiences of her don't post on any kind of publicly available forum

As discussed above, for such an extraordinary case, there actually seems to be very little about it and few people seem to know about it. Perhaps that will change once the trial properly begins...

 

[Jsizzle]

The police/prosecution are being very tight-lipped about everything.

I'm extremely surprised by how few people have heard abut this, to be honest. Most people I've mentioned it to have no clue of it.

Yeah I haven’t heard about it. So sad. Hopefully they get to the truth of it all.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Yeah I haven’t heard about it. So sad. Hopefully they get to the truth of it all.

My view is that this has been reported, both on national television and in the national press.

I recall the original arrest in 2018 being reported and the day when LL was named, as she had been charged with multiple offences on national television news.

The period between first Court appearance and trial are not newsworthy unless there are further charges or some other notable development.

The press will not publish any revelations or salacious gossip owing to the sub judice rule.

Maybe folk had given up listening to the news in 2020 because they were trying to avoid the doom and gloom of Covid-19.

 

[Marantz4250b]

My view is that this has been reported, both on national television and in the national press.

I recall the original arrest in 2018 being reported and the day when LL was named, as she had been charged with multiple offences on national television news.

The period between first Court appearance and trial are not newsworthy unless there are further charges or some other notable development.

The press will not publish any revelations or salacious gossip owing to the sub judice rule.

Maybe folk had given up listening to the news in 2020 because they were trying to avoid the doom and gloom of Covid-19.

I only heard about it on her final arrest. I'm totally enthralled by it and I cannot believe I hadn't noticed either of her previous arrests being reported - that said the past few years have been full of long work days and not really watching the news too much.

I've mentioned it to several people and I'm surprised how few had heard of it. Maybe it was covered more heavily in certain parts and I'm not in those parts?

 

[Bakers]

Nurse Lucy Letby appears in court charged with murder of eight babies - Cheshire Live this gives all charges and dates

 

[Bakers]

Nurse Lucy Letby appears in court charged with murder of eight babies - Cheshire Live this gives all charges and dates

Some chargers here like

 

[Bakers]

could these attemted murder of a potential victim chargers be she acted in a way during the actual birth of a baby putting the babys life in danger potentially preventing the baby from living?

 

[Marantz4250b]

could these attemted murder of a potential victim chargers be she acted in a way during the actual birth of a baby putting the babys life in danger potentially preventing the baby from living?

They absolutely could. Two things though; I'm not sure that she was often present during births, don't know if that was part of her job, and; how would you do something which would go unnoticed by anyone else present?

We do know that one of the charges relates to an attempted murder on probably the day of birth and actual murder of the same child who died at a different location three days later where LL was not present. The murder charge makes it clear that the alleged act of murder took place at Chester though.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

could these attemted murder of a potential victim chargers be she acted in a way during the actual birth of a baby putting the babys life in danger potentially preventing the baby from living?

As far as I am aware LL was a neonatal nurse, not a midwife and did not work in the birthing suite. I would be very surprised if any of the allegations relate to actions during birth.

The NHS operate different type of neonatal units and they are named depending on the level of specialist care that they offer. They provide an additional level of care beyond what a normal well newborn needs.

At the time of the alleged offences the neonatal unit at the Countess of Chester Hospital was a local neonatal unit (level 2), which is often for babies born between 28-32 weeks. Following the unexplained deaths and collapses the hospital unilaterally downgraded the unit to a special care baby unit (low dependency - level 1).

A neonatal intensive care unit (level 3) cares for babies with the highest need of support.

https://www.networks.nhs.uk/nhs-net...uments/StandardsAssessmentDefinitions_000.pdf

 

[Bakers]

They absolutely could. Two things though; I'm not sure that she was often present during births, don't know if that was part of her job, and; how would you do something which would go unnoticed by anyone else present?

We do know that one of the charges relates to an attempted murder on probably the day of birth and actual murder of the same child who died at a different location three days later where LL was not present. The murder charge makes it clear that the alleged act of murder took place at Chester though.

a different location? what different location all charges say chester.also a murder charge is the date of death and not when the act is done isn't it ???

 

[Marantz4250b]

a different location? what different location all charges say chester.also a murder charge is the date of death and not when the act is done isn't it ???

One baby is the subject of murder and attempted murder charges (discussed several pages back); the child died at three days old in a hospital about fifteen miles away, I forget the name of the hospital now but it's in the previous posts.

Both the charges state that the alleged criminal acts were carried out at Chester but the child in question definitely died at a different hospital as a fundraising campaign by friends of the family states quite clearly that the child was moved to the other hospital as the Countess did not have facilities sufficient to care for said child. LL was never at that hospital with the child and, as mentioned, the charge is one of murder "at Chester" which means they are saying that she did whatever she is accused of doing before the child was moved. That, then, means that two hospitals have apparently failed to spot murderous behavior!

Nothing is simple about this case and the more convoluted it gets makes me more convinced that she hasnt done this.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

a different location? what different location all charges say chester.also a murder charge is the date of death and not when the act is done isn't it ???

As you say, the date on the charge sheet will be the date of death, which is NOT necessarily the same date as the act, which ultimately caused the death.

I am not aware that the locations of the deaths have been disclosed.

It is possible that one or more of the victims that died were transferred to another neonatal unit with an unexplained condition and subsequently died as a result of those unexplained circumstances, maybe hours or days later.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

That, then, means that two hospitals have apparently failed to spot murderous behavior!

My deduction would be that the condition of the child warranted transfer to a more specialist unit.

The child would have presented with serious clinical difficulties. The role of the clinical staff would be to stabilise vital functions using a hierarchical approach of 'predominant cause' of such symtoms and most effective intervention.

You have to bear in mind that the clinicians at the receiving hospital will be working off information received at handover, which could have been written, verbal in person or remotely.

It's exceptionally harsh to expect clinicians to recognise what may be deliberate harm, when all they have to go on is presenting condition, general observations and blood tests etc.

Diagnosis can be very complex with many identical signs and symptoms reflected in different causes and conditions.

 

[rjay]

— An NHS source said Ms Letby was moved into administrative duties in late 2016

Does this not suggest that her name had been flagged up to some degree before police involved?

Chester hospital baby deaths: Nurse Lucy Letby arrested on suspicion of murdering eight babies


I'd say if it quacks , swims and walks like a duck ..its likely a duck ...ive been an nhs nurse for 34years ...being moved to admin duties is not promotion...and as the unit was so understaffed ...even if downgraded to admissions she would still be needed to work as a nurse not admin ...maternity or children's wards would be the logical move in the unlikely event she was not needed in neonatal...not admin

I’m sure management would have “reasons” to change a nurse’s duties. But reasons are not necessarily verified facts yet. I’m sure if there is any suspicion of illegal activity, a hospital will take no risks to patients. It doesn’t mean that their suspicions are correct.

 

[Bakers]

As you say, the date on the charge sheet will be the date of death, which is NOT necessarily the same date as the act, which ultimately caused the death.

I am not aware that the locations of the deaths have been disclosed.

It is possible that one or more of the victims that died were transferred to another neonatal unit with an unexplained condition and subsequently died as a result of those unexplained circumstance, maybe hours or days later.[/QUO yes the locations have always said COCH the babies were even named at one pointLucy Letby: nurse accused of murdering babies remanded in custody | UK news | The Guardian

 

[Bakers]

As you say, the date on the charge sheet will be the date of death, which is NOT necessarily the same date as the act, which ultimately caused the deat

As you say, the date on the charge sheet will be the date of death, which is NOT necessarily the same date as the act, which ultimately caused the death.

I am not aware that the locations of the deaths have been disclosed.

It is possible that one or more of the victims that died were transferred to another neonatal unit with an unexplained condition and subsequently died as a result of those unexplained circumstances, maybe hours or days later.

yes the location has always been COCH babies were even named at one point Lucy Letby: nurse accused of murdering babies remanded in custody | UK news | The Guardian

 

[Bakers]

As you say, the date on the charge sheet will be the date of death, which is NOT necessarily the same date as the act, which ultimately caused the deat

As you say, the date on the charge sheet will be the date of death, which is NOT necessarily the same date as the act, which ultimately caused the death.

I am not aware that the locations of the deaths have been disclosed.

It is possible that one or more of the victims that died were transferred to another neonatal unit with an unexplained condition and subsequently died as a result of those unexplained circumstances, maybe hours or days later.

yes the location has always been COCH babies were even named at one point Lucy Letby: nurse accused of murdering babies remanded in custody | UK news | The Guardian