I don't think anyone on the nursing side has given evidence to the Inquiry, so far, to say they knew about the allegations between Jul 2016 and Jan 2017, when she wrote the email to them.
Melanie Taylor - shift-leader, band 6
Q. And what did you understand when you received that?
A. As far as I can remember, I don't think I was in any conversations about these allegations. I was unaware. So this came as a surprise to me. I think from -- possibly naively -- or what I thought this was probably a clinical competence thing that maybe they had questions around her clinical competence because it doesn't say what the allegations are. I did find it quite surprising, and I don't really know further kind of my thought process on it. She --she never came back to the unit --
[Q.] ...We do know from Dr Lambie that, by September 2015,she had observed a group of nurses in a huddle trying to work out or looking at row rotas, where in effect her evidence was they had begun to think the unthinkable and thinking is there a link between somebody and these unexpected deaths or events and looking at rotas. Do you know anything about that conversations by September 2015 between nurses thinking these events are happening?
A. No. If they were happening -- if they were happening, I was not aware of them. I wasn't aware of any suspicions or concerns.
Q. Or questions -- I'm not suggesting suspicions -- the questions at that stage thinking, well, who's on shift? What's going on here? That's not necessarily the same as having a --
A. Yeah --
Q. -- concern about an individual.
A. I don't -- I don't -- again, I don't recall that. I think I did hear comments, I don't know who specifically, but from staff about -- and I think we all thought that that she was there for a lot. My personal feelings, and from what I heard from other staff, were that it was really unfortunate that she'd been there for so many tragic events.
Ashleigh Hudson - band 5 (same as LL)
Q. So if we go to INQ0058624, page 1. This one: "Dear colleagues ..."
A. Yeah.
Q. "... I was redeployed from the unit in July 2016 following serious and distressing allegations." That one?
A. That was the -- from my memory was the first time I had seen in black and white that there been any accusation. She'd been removed from the unit. We had been told it was for her own well-being and it was going to be a short period, that she had a secondment. One of our other nursing staff also had a secondment. So it didn't seem out of the realms of possibility. As time went on, the longer that she was off the unit, it was something that you thought about. You'd think something's not quite adding up and no one's discussing it, no one's saying anything, and it wasn't, from my memory, until this that I saw in black and white that there was allegations and there was concerns.
Q. And this says this letter "after a thorough investigation", was there a conversation, as you might expect at that point, between nurse: what was the investigation then? You know, even knowing that she says here she's been exonerated, did you all -- did you piece that it must be to do with deaths and deteriorations?
A. Yeah, just from common sense.
Q. Dr Lambie's evidence was to the Inquiry that, in September 2015, she'd seen: "... a huddle or a small group of nurses at the nurses' station going through rotas thinking the unthinkable, in effect, looking at who might be connected to the same unexpected events." From what you're saying, that wasn't -- you weren't one of those nurses?
A. No.
Q. Do you know that some of your colleagues were doing that at the time or not?
A. No.
Kathryn Percival-Calderbank - senior neonatal practitioner band 6
Q. And what were your thoughts when you received it? What did you think about it?
A. Because we weren't -- we weren't informed about anything, we -- the fact that we didn't know what these allegations had been and so we were -- and so we were a bit -- a bit stunned by it all really, because we -- we just were still under the impression she'd been on secondment.
Q. Had Eirian Powell or Yvonne Griffiths said anything to the team -- the nursing team after this email had been sent?
A. Not as far as I'm aware, no. I don't --I can't remember being informed about anything.
Q. I want to ask you about an incident which we heard evidence about from Dr Rachel Lambie. She described an occasion when she walked into the neonatal unit, and I think she might have been in the intensive care room, and she found there were some nurses huddled over a computer and they were going through the staff rota, and the reason they were going through the staff rota is because they were trying to enquire, investigate as to who might have been on duty when the recent events had occurred. Now, she thinks this happened before she left the hospital in September 2015, and she remembers a nurse saying words to the effect that, you know, "It would be awful, but we are just checking", something along those lines. Were you, were you part of that conversation?
A. Not as far as I'm aware, no
Kate Bissell - band 6
Q. And what were your thoughts on receiving it? What did you think?
A. Just --
Q. Sorry, go ahead.
A. No. I mean, it's awful. Just I remember thinking it's awful to -- to be -- have allegations like that against you, but then she never back to the unit, so it just all --
Q. What did you think the allegations related to?
A. Related to probably -- they were related to the higher incidence of deaths --
Q. Is that what you thought at the time?
A. -- that were occurring. Possibly, yes.
Q. Is that what you were told?
A. We were never -- we were never told anything, other than -- I felt like the nursing staff were never really told why -- what was happening. We were just told that she was removed from -- from the unit, she went to the risk and safety department, and then obviously we had this email to say that there were allegations made against her. So it kind of fitted that obviously she was moved at the time and then obviously allegations had been made, so it --
Q. Did you have any understanding as to who was making the allegations?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any understanding as to precisely what the allegations were?
A. No.
Q. And then we heard evidence from Dr Rachel Lambie about an occasion when she went to the neonatal unit and she said she was walking through the intensive care unit and she came upon nursing staff in a small huddle in the corner, over the computer, and she said she asked them what they were doing, and one of the nurses replied that they were going through the rota just to make sure there wasn't somebody who was on "for all of them", I think -- I'm not sure what that was a reference to but maybe the recent events, and Dr Lambie gave oral evidence that she recalled the nurse saying something along the lines of "It's an awful thing to think but we're just looking." Were you involved in that huddle around the computer? Does that ring any bells?
A. No, I wasn't involved in that, and I don't recall that -- looking at an off -- an off-duty on the computer, did she say?
Q. Well, I think her evidence is that "They were in a small huddle in the corner over the computer and they said they were looking at the rota", do you know anything about that incident?
A. No
Elizabeth Marshall - neonatal assistant band 4
Q. Do you recall when Letby was taken off the unit?
A. Vaguely, yes.
Q. And do you recall any discussion either with your nursing colleagues or with your managers about the reason she had been removed from the unit?
A. No. I -- I remember that she was placed in a non-clinical role but not really specifically why that was being done.
Transcript of Part B Evidence: - Melanie Taylor – Registered Nurse - Ashleigh Hudson – Registered Nurse - Kathryn Percival-Calderbank – - Registered Nurse - Kate Bissell – Registered Nurse - Elizabeth Marshall – Neonatal Assistant
thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk
