UK - Lucy Letby - Post-Conviction Statutory Inquiry

[Konstantin]

Agreed. The point I'm making, though, is that we have no one's word that it happened other than Lucy's. She may have simply invented it as part of her false persona?

She wasn't saying that as a justification for her killings but, rather, as the reason she wanted to become a children's nurse.

I think that is plausible.

 

[cottonweaver]

Letby the student nurse who - unusually - failed her final placement and who the Op Hummingbird detectives summarised as having later become just ' average' at work.

For EP she was the 'creme de la creme'

The inquiry heard that Powell had told police: “I wanted her on the unit, I really did. When students come through the system you are almost able to hand-pick the creme de la creme and she was one of those.”

Nursing boss had ‘no qualms’ employing ‘creme de la creme’ Letby, inquiry told

Line manager Eirian Powell told the inquiry into nurse Lucy Letby’s crimes that there was ‘no evidence of any wrongdoing’ after three babies died.

www.shropshirestar.com

It's a new link about today's evidence but there's not a lot there yet. Although this bit below is intriguing.
( Can @Tortoise or anybody recall when LL would have first been sanctioned for this breach? Child C was early in her murder spree. Am just wondering what was EP's sanction then. I don't recall any sanctions and was Child C the only occasion she did this? I felt it was more but my memory might be wrong )

Ms Powell had also told the inquiry it was ward protocol for a nurse not to let anyone touch their designated baby, with doctors urged to ask permission from the designated nurse before doing so.

Ms Langdale asked if Letby 'gravitating' to nursery room 1 when Child C was there, when she had designated babies in room 3, was a "serious breach" of that ward protocol. Ms Powell nodded in response.

 

[Tortoise]

Letby the student nurse who - unusually - failed her final placement and who the Op Hummingbird detectives summarised as having later become just ' average' at work.

For EP she was the 'creme de la creme'

Nursing boss had ‘no qualms’ employing ‘creme de la creme’ Letby, inquiry told

Line manager Eirian Powell told the inquiry into nurse Lucy Letby’s crimes that there was ‘no evidence of any wrongdoing’ after three babies died.

www.shropshirestar.com

It's a new link about today's evidence but there's not a lot there yet.

Creme de la creme? Give it a break EP! Think I'm gonna throw up.

 

[Tortoise]

Ms Powell said: “The question was always asked of me. Nothing changed from Dr Brearey saying he had concerns but he wouldn’t define them and nothing changed from each time, ‘had anyone seen anything?’ or ‘there was no evidence there’.”

Ms Langdale said: “Unexplained dying and collapsing children, that was the evidence, wasn’t it?

“Yes,” said Ms Powell.

MSN

YES Indeed.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Can anyone tell me; with the dose being ten times what was required as an infusion over several hours (or however long it was meant to be for), what is the likelihood that this would have resulted in death?

What I'm getting at is, as we've discussed previously, if she did do this intentionally was she actually intending death to occur or was she just trying to create an emergency for the attention?

JMO The baby was intubated so I don't think it would have *necessarily resulted in death. *Most likely a need for increased vent settings until the dose wore off.

 

[katydid23]

I honestly wonder if EP thinks LL is innocent, or if she's just one of those people who never admits she was wrong, ever.

Probably both. If she is publicly stating that the consultant's, who were demanding that Lucy be taken off the floor after she killed two of the triplets, the very day she returned from vacation, are the 'difficult ones' ----instead of the heroic ones, than she is delusional, imo.

Didn't we also just hear that EP supported Lucy being cleared immediately, allowing her to give out controlled meds, even after she made a potentially serious mistake doing so? Blows my mind. She said the incident was exaggerated.

 

[katydid23]

I can't understand how LL was ever seen as 'nice Lucy' by her colleagues? Putting the murdering aside, she's really coming across in the Inquiry as a seriously unpleasant, petulant person, full of her own self-importance, draining to be around and not remotely supportive or respectful of those she worked with.

I think she showed 'two faces.'

To the consultants, she showed 'nice' Lucy---helpful, polite, organised. Sweet.

Some of her co-workers saw the cold, jealous Lucy. But many were snowed by her. She knew how to successfully manipulate others. We see that in her texts to colleagues. Stirring the pot, little lies thrown out here and there, fake compliments to higher ups, mean comments about others. And planting FALSE info about the babies and their alleged symptoms before collapses.

 

[katydid23]

Yes, I think that it's the case that everything that 99% of people know about Lucy is the version of Lucy that Lucy wanted them to know.

I still won't believe that she had a "difficult" birth until it's independently verified. Every time that's mentioned it always feeds to the original source being Lucy. She is the sole source of that information, as far as I can tell.

Actually, I think Lucy's mom was the original source for that info. And I think we can trace backwards, that hypochondriac type energy which can sometimes turn into the more severe form of Munchausens. I think they were kind of a team.

 

[cottonweaver]

At the start of the hearing

'At the beginning of her evidence the inquiry heard Ms Powell wanted to express her “sincere condolences” to all the parents and families for the loss of their children and harm suffered.

Asked by Ms Langdale if she wanted to add anything, Ms Powell said: “I don’t think anything I could say would alleviate the pain that they continue to endure throughout this process and beyond.”

Nursing boss had ‘no qualms’ employing ‘creme de la creme’ Letby

A Chester nursing boss has told a public inquiry she never had any evidence of wrongdoing by “creme de la creme” nurse Lucy Letby.

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

By the end of the hearing, the Parents' KCs .....

and a little more information in the BBC's report
Powell claims....

Ms Powell was later asked about events in July 2016 when Letby was moved away from clinical duties to a clerical role following the deaths of two triplets who died a day apart in June 2016. Letby was later convicted of murdering both boys.

“I felt something had to change. A decision had to be made," she said.

"The working environment was untenable with the consultants and the staff. The [nursing] staff there felt she [Letby] was not responsible [for the unexpected deaths and collapses]."

She said the majority of the nursing staff and she herself felt this way at that time.

Lucy Letby: Boss had 'no qualms' hiring 'creme de la creme' nurse

One of the serial killer's former managers says she was highly regarded as a newly qualified nurse.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Sweeper2000]

I still don't take with the munchausens, there didn't seem to be much there that made me think she always wanted attention afterwards. Seemed more the thrill to me as truly weird as that sounds.

Eta. To all In media please please please stop using that phrase in relation to that monster. Its literally turning my stomach.

 

[katydid23]

I still don't take with the munchausens, there didn't seem to be much there that made me think she always wanted attention afterwards. Seemed more the thrill to me as truly weird as that sounds.

Eta. To all In media please please please stop using that phrase in relation to that monster. Its literally turning my stomach.

If you read a lot about the munchausen research, it shows that it's about much more than attention afterwards.

It is also about tricking/deceiving the doctors and the parents, which I think was one of her motivations.

Also it is about power and control which also describes her, imo.

AND she is also a sadistic narcissist, on top of having Munchausen By Proxy, IMO.




People with the syndrome are often very convincing and skilled at manipulating and exploiting doctors.

[1] These patients are motivated purely by internal gains, such as seeking attention, coping with stress, or enjoyment in stumping healthcare workers

Factitious disorder imposed on another (FDIA), also known as fabricated or induced illness by carers (FII) and first named as Munchausen syndrome by proxy(MSbP) after Munchausen syndrome, is a mental health disorder in which a caregivercreates the appearance of health problems in another person...

Lucy Letby motivated by pathological desire for attention, expert says​

A criminologist believes there are ‘clear similarities’ with her crimes and historic cases of killer nurses

Factitious Disorder - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf​

NCBI
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › books › NBK557547


https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/lucy-letby-doctors-loughborough-university-lincolnshire-american-b1101580.html

 

[katydid23]

I still don't take with the munchausens, there didn't seem to be much there that made me think she always wanted attention afterwards. Seemed more the thrill to me as truly weird as that sounds.

Eta. To all In media please please please stop using that phrase in relation to that monster. Its literally turning my stomach.

Lucy Letby motivated by pathological desire for attention, expert says

A criminologist believes there are ‘clear similarities’ with her crimes and historic cases of killer nurses

www.standard.co.uk

Dr Willmott believes there are clear resemblances between the historic cases and that of Letby.
The criminologist, who has previously authored a paper on the Beverley Allitt case, said: “In our analysis of healthcare professionals who perpetrate violence against their patients, especially children, offending appeared to be motivated by a pathological desire for attention and sympathy emerging as a consequence of their involvement in the case.

There was a complex interaction between this and a history of personality disorder diagnoses and characteristics, and were often found to be highly sadistic and narcissistic as described by those who knew them.”

He continued: “Text messages released during the Letby trial appear to indicate her efforts to garner sympathy from her colleagues following the children’s deaths.

“Other evidence that she had to be repeatedly asked to focus on other patients around the time of the death of other babies and her passing on death notifications to family members seems to indicate her desire to be personally involved in the case, even when doing so was likely to raise suspicions about her involvement.


AND HERE IS a CRIMINOLOGIST'S OPINION:

James Treadwell, professor in criminology at Staffordshire University, also said he believes there are similarities between Letby and Allitt.
Prof Treadwell suggested a number of reasons why Letby could have committed the crimes, including that she is a narcissist; Munchausen syndrome by proxy; she enjoyed the risk; she used the offences as a means for attention from the doctor prosecutors said she had a “crush” on; or evil

 

[Anxala]

I think she showed 'two faces.'

To the consultants, she showed 'nice' Lucy---helpful, polite, organised. Sweet.

Some of her co-workers saw the cold, jealous Lucy. But many were snowed by her. She knew how to successfully manipulate others. We see that in her texts to colleagues. Stirring the pot, little lies thrown out here and there, fake compliments to higher ups, mean comments about others. And planting FALSE info about the babies and their alleged symptoms before collapses.

Sure, I appreciate that, but I still don't get how she managed it with that grimly banal and colourless personality of hers. She never came across in her txts and/or documented conversations as being charismatic, good fun, empathetic, charming, witty, well rounded, any of the characteristics that would explain - or at least go some way to explaining - why people liked her and/or were taken in by her. And now hearing all this latest stuff about her in the Inquiry is just compounding my impression of her as being not just colourless but in fact really unpleasantly so.

Which is why I find it astonishing that she managed to pull the wool over so many people's eyes.

Also, I think your 'two faces' estimate is wildly conservative. The grevious levels of low cunning she employed suggest a number of faces equivalent to the number of handover sheets found in her house!

 

[Sweeper2000]

That's another thing I don't take with tbh media driven psychologists. Generally for a diagnosis to be made it would take many sessions with supporting information from people known to the person in focus. We know what people said of her don't we? She seems beige and that's what nearly everyone has said. I do see some bits there but no behaviour that to me would indicate anything pathological excluding the sheer level of deceit.

 

[cottonweaver]

Just reading the transcript of Yvonne Griffith's testimony yesterday makes me so mad.I know Powell has rightly received lots of criticism, but I think plenty is due to Griffith's too. She knew about the concerns consultants had about Letby from October. She saw graphs proving that Letby was present for 7/8 deaths by October, and 9/10 deaths by January. Yet she described consultants as conducting a witchhunt in Letby's grievance process. She completely changed her testimony in quite a suspicious way about whether she changed Letby's shifts as a result of Brearey's concerns about her role in the collapse of I. Now she completely denies the recollections she previously had after reading other people's testimonys for the inquiry. She shows absolutely no regret or contrition about her actions. And she currently is the most senior nurse at COC, having taken over from Powell. I'm convinved if the same thing happened now she would behave in exactly the same way and the nurse would be free to murder as before. She should not be in her job IMO.

Re bolded point above

Have just got to one of those transcript pages now.
Page 44. Yvonne Griffith & her 15 October 2024 new statement ( Questions from one of the victims' KCs)

https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Thirlwall-Inquiry-16-October-2024.pdf

 

[Jazmania]

Re bolded point above

Have just got to one of those transcript pages now.
Page 44. Yvonne Griffith & her 15 October 2024 new statement ( Questions from one of the victims' KCs)

View attachment 538364

https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Thirlwall-Inquiry-16-October-2024.pdf

It's completely shameful and transparent. She's covering her own bottom because if she made changes to the shift based on suspicions letby was harming babies then she is opening herself up to serious repercussions. She is clearly lying.

 

[Jazmania]

I'm still wading through her inquiry evidence but what I have read is worrying considering she was promoted into Powell's role after Powell's retirement

Too many examples so I'll just pick one.

Question line 2 ( RH column) In retrospect do you think such training would have helped?
Answer, line 10 ( RH column)
' No I don't think so because....'


View attachment 538320

Her evidence starts on page 19
https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Thirlwall-Inquiry-16-October-2024.pdf

These people just don't get it. How many times do the lawyers have to point out that you don't need to see someone harming patients to take action. That would set an unrealistically high bar for reporting any crime to the police. Not seeing someone do harm is not the same as no evidence. Her presence at a string of unexplained, sudden, suspicious collapses was the evidence. The fact that she is in that position and still believes this is highly concerning.

 

[Parker Knoll]

I agree … all very convenient for her.
Let’s hear what people have to say then I will tailor mine at the last minute.
It’s disgraceful actually.

 

[Parker Knoll]

https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0008961_49.pdf

I don’t think anyone has mentioned this email dropping into evidence in todays roundups but this email is Letby down to a T
She’s not really taking any responsibility here, yes acknowledging it just about as she has to say something but the you can see just how argumentative she is as clear as day, It was herself and a colleague administering the drug in question (so halve the blame) here, then she ramps it up by adding it was a senior colleague ( should of known better ) but she then continues to plough on with excuse after excuse. The unit was busy, not fully staffed with adequate skill mix even the newly qualified nurse who had nothing whatsoever to do with this gets the Letby treatment.
I find her emails fascinating - this is exactly Letby - deflect, deny, lie.

 

[katydid23]

That's another thing I don't take with tbh media driven psychologists. Generally for a diagnosis to be made it would take many sessions with supporting information from people known to the person in focus. We know what people said of her don't we? She seems beige and that's what nearly everyone has said. I do see some bits there but no behaviour that to me would indicate anything pathological excluding the sheer level of deceit.

" I do see some bits there but no behaviour that to me would indicate anything pathological excluding the sheer level of deceit."

Really? Nothing in her behaviour indicates she is pathological?

Pathological= extreme in a way that is not normal or that shows an illness or mental problem.


I think being found guilty of 25 violent incidents victimising newborn babies would be considered pathological.

Killing at least 7 newborns would be truly pathological.

She is not 'beige' or 'unremarkable' IMO. She is extremely ill, severely troubled and sadistic.

This article by the criminologist was legit, IMO. He didn't need to have any one to one sessions with a serial killer in order to diagnose her as sadistic, depraved and narcissistic.

He'd have to have many sessions with you or me in order to make a diagnosis because we have not been found guilty of murdering any newborns in our care. But as a criminologist, his area of expertise, he is considered a credible expert in pathological behaviour. IMO