UK - Lucy Letby - Post-Conviction Statutory Inquiry

[Anxala]

Honestly? I suspect I would be exactly the same.

Agree. People seem to be forgetting that they were as much in the dark about LL as everyone else was, and the fact they were getting support from hospital mgt which would have impacted upon how they responded to all this.

A small walk in their shoes accounts for pretty much everything they did in support of their daughter imo and yes, included in that, their heavy-handedness.

I still feel so sorry for them and the grim future they've been left with. All the ruined lives.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Agree. People seem to be forgetting that they were as much in the dark about LL as everyone else was, and the fact they were getting support from hospital mgt which would have impacted upon how they responded to all this.

A small walk in their shoes accounts for pretty much everything they did in support of their daughter imo and yes, included in that, their heavy-handedness.

I still feel so sorry for them and the grim life they've been left with. All the ruined lives.

I do agree here.

There are no winners at all here. None.

LL's parents are certainly among the victims here. I cannot imagine how you begin to rationalise any of this.

 

[Sweeper2000]

LL and her parents have what seems to be an extremely close - "enmeshed" is how you described it - relationship. She seems very emotionally dependent on them and vice-versa.

Her parents are very involved with her life and it seems that they always have been and to a very high degree. They went on holiday together several times a year; LL made comments to colleagues as to how they hated her living so far away; they helped her buy the house; they got involved with her disciplinary. I bet they bought her car as well. They appear to have micro-managed her life from the outset.p

If there is anything divergent/abnormal/unusual/strange about her personality or behavior I think it would be inconceivable that they would not have some sort of inkling of it. Perhaps their over the top involvement is because of it?

I'm not so sure. They could and were probably more inclined towards seeing her as perfect even if there is evidence to the contrary. They may indeed have known something is off but were unwilling to not see her as "perfect" or they knew but didn't care enough to press the issue. Could be lots of things but I'd be inclined towards the former. So easy to dismiss things especially when personal. Their ott reaction may be due to it or indeed it itself as in "the problem". Could be many things. I would half expect the two parents who do seem very very close to eichother to be perhaps even more close with their only child. Lucy was many many years of love, hope, enjoyment, pain sacrifice and god knows what else in their eyes, that's her value to them. All in mind I'm not sure I've seen the persistence in aggression that might come with a family in total disbelief. Weirdly enough I thought the mums reactions were not much too much or the dads but that's jmo. Her mom's reaction at sentencing totally in bounds to my eye "this can't be right" presumably it would take some time for them to realise it is indeed right.

 

[Kemug]

We have failed to find the things we were looking for in Lucy's past, ie hurting animals, being bullied, petty theft, etc etc. Yet we still find it difficult to believe that there were no indications at all of something amiss. So now I am wondering if we should look further afield - perhaps a relative also had "something wrong" with them. A great-aunt, an uncle, a cousin? Could be.

 

[Parker Knoll]

She’s been interviewed again according to the DM.
I have linked it over on the other letby thread.

 

[Tortoise]

Coroner never told by hospital bosses of Letby suspicions, inquiry hears

Lucy Letby is serving 15 whole-life orders after she was convicted of murdering seven infants and attempting to murder seven others.

www.standard.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

Oh my goodness

Just reading through Ian Harvey's transcript. Ms Langdale's questioning.

[Q.] You receive this on 23 November and call Dr Brearey in for a meeting on 24 November: why?

A. It was to have a conversation with him with regard to what was alleged in this email. I believe that this relates to the Royal College review that he, Dr Jayaram and, I believe, Ann Fisher had reviewed and I think it was on College advice that that was, in the first instance, a confidential review and I think I had advised them that, at that point, it wasn't to be shared.

Q. Can I just go back to that, Mr Harvey and make it very clear. You commissioned that review?

A. Yes.

Q. You were not required to be secretive or cover it up. You could share it with who you chose having commissioned it, provided you and your lawyers were satisfied that you had fulfilled your obligations around how certain aspects of personal data were shared; do you understand that: it was your choice?

A. I -- I understand that now. But at the time, it was my interpretation that the Royal College knew what they were doing and what they were talking about and that they would follow their instructions.

Q. So stop saying that you were prevented from circulating that report. You could have done what you wanted with it, with the members of staff and the Consultants. Nothing stopped you doing that.

29/11/2024 – Transcript of Week 11 Day 5 | The Thirlwall Inquiry

Transcript of Part B Evidence: - Ian Harvey, Medical Director (continued)

thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk

 

[Tortoise]

Another portion of the same transcript :

Q. If we go now to INQ0057499, page 1. "Dear Ian ..." So we now have Ms Letby emailing the Medical Director:

"Dear Ian ..."

Read the content of the email before I ask a question. She says:

"There is something that has been playing on my mind since receipt of my grievance statements that I am wondering if you could help me with. Karen Rees was informed that a junior doctor openly tabled a meeting, when discussing the increased mortality rates and my possible connection/involvement with this. When Karen asked, the details of the doctor in the meeting were not provided. Is there an agenda or minutes which could be traced. I am interested to know who tabled this and who was present as they are potentially professionals that I will be working with in the future and feel it is only fair for me to know. I believe the meeting took place shortly after the deaths of the two Triplets and involved senior and junior doctors. I would appreciate any help you can offer."

You wouldn't necessarily have known this, Mr Harvey, but we know, of course, that Letby was texting and messaging Dr U for information about babies on the unit. You, as the Medical Director, are now being emailed and asked for information of people discussing concerns about her. What do you make of that: has that happened before?

A. It's not happened before and I regarded it --and regard it -- as a completely inappropriate email.

Q. What did you do with it?

A. I cannot remember. I don't even remember. It was only when this was made available as part of the Inquiry that I -- I saw it. I have not had any response made available to me. I could only imagine, having received this, that I would have discussed it either with Alison Kelly or with Sue Hodkinson.

Q. We haven't seen a reply anywhere, Mr Harvey, as it sounds like you have. You have just seen the email for a second time. This email is a standalone, as far as we can ascertain?

A. I mean, I can honestly say that I would not have forwarded that information to her. It would not have been appropriate.

Q. Somebody has told her about this meeting, though. There is somebody in her group within the hospital who have informed her, on the face of it, that there's been some kind of discussion involving a junior doctor. That appears to be information she has of sorts there?

A. Yes.

Q. When you got that, did you question why somebody who was suspected of a crime, was having access to that information and, furthermore, feeling confident enough to ask you, as the Medical Director, for further information?

A. I -- because I can't remember this email, I can't remember what action I would have taken on result -- on receipt of this email.

Q. What made you think it was inappropriate?

A. The tone of the email. The approach to me asking for that information.

Q. What is it about the tone?

A. It's being made as a very sort of personal approach. It is -- the tone of the writing within it and, also, it is the nature of the request that is being put in there.

 

[Tortoise]

The email from LL to Ian Harvey

INQ0057499 – Email from Lucy Letby to Ian Harvey, entitled ‘Meeting information’, dated 09/01/2017 | The Thirlwall Inquiry

Examining the events at the Countess of Chester Hospital and their implications following the trial, and subsequent convictions, of former neonatal nurse Lucy Letby of murder and attempted murder of babies at the hospital.

thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk

 

[katydid23]

Honestly? I suspect I would be exactly the same.

IDK. I don't think I'd be contacting the hospital to ask about my daughter's continued 'training' or her moving forward with her career. I'd be wanting to get her out of there, hopefully with no charges, and move on to a new career at that point.

Who'd want their child to stay someplace that falsely accused her of murdering babies? I'd bd getting her an attorney and looking for a new type of career.

 

[marynnu]

IDK. I don't think I'd be contacting the hospital to ask about my daughter's continued 'training' or her moving forward with her career. I'd be wanting to get her out of there, hopefully with no charges, and move on to a new career at that point.

Who'd want their child to stay someplace that falsely accused her of murdering babies? I'd bd getting her an attorney and looking for a new type of career.

I mean, it's so far out of our experience who can say. Letby herself was adamant about returning to the unit, and at this point she'd committed around 8 years of her life to this career.

 

[Parker Knoll]

If my daughter had been accused the first thing I would have done independently of any NHS tribunal rep would be instruct lawyers.
No phone calls or pitching up at meeting threatening. All through them.
Easy to say though agreed as I haven’t walked in their shoes but I know I would not of handled it like them one hundred percent.

 

[ColourPurple]

Enmeshment in families is normal, healthy degree of if assumed. That's why her parents are victims as well. Imagine having all reason to love someone you raised from a child being stripped away from you by that very person. That's a huge undertaking to process. Goes from "Lucy letby our beloved child" to "Lucy letby our baby murdering child". The difference in those two images is almost inconceivable and the process going from one particularly positive image to a twisted obscene almost unrecognisable image is difficult to imagine. That's gonna hurt a bit and cause a rupture in the reality they were living. I wouldn't want to go through that. From best to worst.

Obviously it would be hard for any parent to accept their child is a serial killer of babies but I don’t think their family dynamic is “normal” at all. It’s not just their inability to separate their own feelings from their daughter’s feelings and the impact on them from the impact on LL. Even before the grievance LL described (in messages to Ali Ventress) feeling suffocated by them.

Then during the grievance process, they both contact the hospital without LL’s permission or knowledge, demanding updates. Both of them demonstrate different controlling behaviours. You have her father threatening people, even senior management and dictating to them what they should do. Then you have her mother becoming hysterical, screaming and crying to the point where the managers are spending time worrying about how to get emotional support for HER when they didn’t even provide that kind of support to the parents of the babies!

Obviously we are seeing them at their worst but her texts demonstrate LL already felt suffocated by them before then, so it’s hard not to wonder whether this was a pattern of behaviour repeated throughout LL’s life. Her father comes across as a domineering and aggressive and her mother comes across as histrionic and emotionally unstable. Did they use those same behaviours to control and “suffocate” her ?

I know there are various theories about serial killers, eg. Some target women as a way of symbolically killing their controlling mothers, or some start out killing and torturing animals as children because the person they felt controlled or hurt by was too physically powerful for them to attack, so they chose smaller, weaker victims instead. Most of those serial killers were male though. Just my totally unqualified musings but with LL it’s almost as if the babies were the smaller or weaker victims that she chose but by doing so she knew she would also hurt the babies’ mothers and fathers too.

And one of her texts concentrated specifically on the pain of the babies’ father. Although according to the inquiry her description of him being on the floor was apparently not true! She texted “Dad was on the floor crying saying 'please don't take our baby away' when we took him to the mortuary. It's just heart-breaking."It's the hardest thing I've ever had to do. Hopefully have a more positive one tonight." And then within hours tried to kill Baby As surving twin baby B!

 

[ColourPurple]

I have been convinced for some time that there is something in her history that her parents know of (or have suspicions of) but nothing has been said outside the family.

I find it extremely difficult to believe that the people who are most close to her - especially given what is an extremely close relationship with her parents - were 100% surprised that she has done something terrible. Now, I'm sure they were surprised and horrified at the extent of what she's done, but I don't think that they are entirely clueless as to the reasons behind it all.

Yes they may well have seen worrying signs years before but we’ll never know, as I doubt they’d admit it now . Alternatively she may have engaged in worrying behaviours but enjoyed the power of them not knowing anything about that side of her.

Dawn is often described as her childhood friend and talks about how LLs lifelong dream was to be a neonatal nurse because of her difficult birth and the NNU nurses saving her life owtte . However I’m not sure that Dawn knew her until they were teenagers and in court LL said although she always wanted to work with children it wasn’t until late secondary school that she decided she wanted to be a children’s nurse. LL also made no mention in court whatsoever that the reason for her career choice was down to being in a SCBU herself. So I have doubts about that part of the story.

Myers: Where did you go to college?
LL: I went to the local Sixth Form college.
Myers: When was it that you first knew you wanted to be a nurse?
LL: I’ve always wanted to work with children but it was towards the end of secondary school that I thought I wanted to do nursing and then picked A Level subject's that would best support that career
From @CS2C latest LL video transcript of her defence.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Obviously it would be hard for any parent to accept their child is a serial killer of babies but I don’t think their family dynamic is “normal” at all. It’s not just their inability to separate their own feelings from their daughter’s feelings and the impact on them from the impact on LL. Even before the grievance LL described (in messages to Ali Ventress) feeling suffocated by them.

Then during the grievance process, they both contact the hospital without LL’s permission or knowledge, demanding updates. Both of them demonstrate different controlling behaviours. You have her father threatening people, even senior management and dictating to them what they should do. Then you have her mother becoming hysterical, screaming and crying to the point where the managers are spending time worrying about how to get emotional support for HER when they didn’t even provide that kind of support to the parents of the babies!

Obviously we are seeing them at their worst but her texts demonstrate LL already felt suffocated by them before then, so it’s hard not to wonder whether this was a pattern of behaviour repeated throughout LL’s life. Her father comes across as a domineering and aggressive and her mother comes across as histrionic and emotionally unstable. Did they use those same behaviours to control and “suffocate” her ?

I know there are various theories about serial killers, eg. Some target women as a way of symbolically killing their controlling mothers, or some start out killing and torturing animals as children because the person they felt controlled or hurt by was too physically powerful for them to attack, so they chose smaller, weaker victims instead. Most of those serial killers were male though. Just my totally unqualified musings but with LL it’s almost as if the babies were the smaller or weaker victims that she chose but by doing so she knew she would also hurt the babies’ mothers and fathers too.

And one of her texts concentrated specifically on the pain of the babies’ father. Although according to the inquiry her description of him being on the floor was apparently not true! She texted “Dad was on the floor crying saying 'please don't take our baby away' when we took him to the mortuary. It's just heart-breaking."It's the hardest thing I've ever had to do. Hopefully have a more positive one tonight." And then within hours tried to kill Baby As surving twin baby B!

That's good work cp. Just to clarify by "normal" I meant par for the course or "not necessarily to an unhealthy degree of". So it's the dynamic but the dynamic does not negatively impact on anyone's life. Same way everyone has a degree of narcissism but it's within the bounds of what is normal or otherwise not excessive. Also that yes she is a only child so they are going to be heavily invested in her. Some folks are a bit more "soon as your 18 your out the door" I wouldn't expect that in this context. they will be close but not to the point of losing distinction or an unhealthy degree of enmeshment.

How is it that you think they cannot separate individuals feelings from each other? I know she said she felt suffocated but as far as I can tell only once? Ia also think that's relevant to her stage in life. She was striking out on her own, seeking independence probably wanted none of the parenting fuss and any is too much kind of thing. Honestly I don't think I've seen anything that would make me question the family dynamic and I'm not sure I would say I have seen the persistence in denial that means people aren't dealing with it properly. Honestly the shock and shame they must have felt when she got the G must have been through the roof.

Incidentally I have read an article containing accounts given by people whom knew the family well and they described the dynamic exactly how you said. John is the boss and the mum is a bit histrionic but otherwise normal. Quiet and reserved family they said. I think there is something to your theory as well really is good work. Definitely viable. I might say you are right but it's not the way the parents went about parenting that influenced her to do it. If you are right i think it might be to do with her own failures in thinking rather than some extremely irregular dynamic that pushed her to do it. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Anxala]

He’s back tomorrow and it won’t be pleasant for this utter COWARD.
Simply staggering again, these half *advertiser censored***d apologies are worthless from management as they are still unwilling to take responsibility not withstanding the fat pay cheque they get and got to oversea what was going on literally under their noses and deflect deflect deflect is a disgrace.
I imagine letby smirking in her miserable cell tonight while she watches the news.
My blood is boiling.

^ Just as a by the way, because I wondered about this too, LL has no access to either internet or TV news. I'm sure she gets updates from her parents and legal team but she has no direct access herself, as is quite right.

Communication with the outside world is strictly limited, with all calls made to an approved list of contacts and monitored by prison staff. Letby has no access to the internet. Emails in must be sent through the 'Email a Prisoner' service, with each message printed out and delivered by wardens. Inmates do have access to television news...

Link provides a reasonably clear pic of her life behind bars, how restricted she is, how visits are managed, communication from the outside etc -

https://archive.is/dtbyg#selection-1545.0-1549.214

 

[Kemug]

And one of her texts concentrated specifically on the pain of the babies’ father. Although according to the inquiry her description of him being on the floor was apparently not true! She texted “Dad was on the floor crying saying 'please don't take our baby away' when we took him to the mortuary. It's just heart-breaking."It's the hardest thing I've ever had to do. Hopefully have a more positive one tonight." And then within hours tried to kill Baby As surving twin baby B!

RSBM
This text! It's really all about her, isn't it? "Dad" makes her feel heartbroken, it's the hardest thing she's ever had to do, hopefully she will have a better night tonight.

 

[Tortoise]

^ Just as a by the way, because I wondered about this too, LL has no access to either internet or TV news. I'm sure she gets updates from her parents and legal team but she has no direct access herself, as is quite right.



Link provides a reasonably clear pic of her life behind bars, how restricted she is, how visits are managed, communication from the outside etc -

https://archive.is/dtbyg#selection-1545.0-1549.214

I think you've misread it, that link says they do have access to TV news, and newspapers.

 

[Anxala]

I think you've misread it, that link says they do have access to TV news, and newspapers.

I'm convinced I saw a 'not' in there! And I read it about 3 times before posting it on here! Apologies for misinformation.

Some witness I'd make.

 

[Tortoise]

I'm convinced I saw a 'not' in there! And I read it about 3 times before posting it on here! Apologies for misinformation.

Some witness I'd make.

I think it's possibly the "do" in that sentence. It could have been written as "inmates have access to" but they wrote "inmates do have access to" and I think sometimes we fill gaps with what we expect to read.