UK UK - Manchester, 'Angel of the Meadow' WhtFem Skeletal, 16-30, buried, Jan'10

[GreyPhantom]

Where does it talk about her genetic makeup? Because it would be unusual for an European country, they do not usually do ethnicity estimates, only use very basic MtDNA and that often leads to iffy results such as this one.

"Tests have established she was aged between 18 to 35 and is most likely European but could have come from the Middle East or Indian subcontinents".

Police determined to identify Angel Meadow skeletal remains

The remains of the woman were found at a building site near Manchester city centre in 2010.

www.bbc.com

I'll try and find other references that say it more directly. However, she wasn't your typical Anglo Saxon Caucasian. You can even see that in the phenotype of her reconstructions.

 

[GreyPhantom]

There were Roma/Gypsy people in England for several centuries, she could have been one of them.

I thought that it was really difficult for anybody to leave the Soviet bloc during the Cold War? MOO

Difficult for your average citizen. Doable for a group of people that have migrated off the grid for centuries.

Maybe, but aren't UK "gypsies" more Irish in origin then Eastern European Roma. To me she resembles much more the Roma style gypsy.

 

[MarziPanda]

Difficult for your average citizen. Doable for a group of people that have migrated off the grid for centuries.

Maybe, but aren't UK "gypsies" more Irish in origin then Eastern European Roma. To me she resembles much more the Roma style gypsy.

The UK gypsy/traveller community are both. There are Irish Travellers and there are Romani Gypsies, they don't usually cross over.

I'm from the UK and had a close friend in secondary school who called herself a canal gypsy, her family had lived on canal boats for generations and before that they lived in caravans and such. She had dark brown hair and slightly tanned skin. Her family had been in the UK for centuries as far as she knew. She and her family were lovely people. I would say she had a similar look to her as a Hungarian singer I know of who is Romani (Joci Papai). His DNA test (he took one for a publicity thing) came back quite varied. 33% Indian, 30% Greek/South Italian, 12% Baltic, 11% Sardinian, 13% various other ethnicities including Middle East and Spain. But it was My Heritage which should be taken with a heavy pinch of salt imo. I would love to see a proper breakdown of what Angel's DNA said but it just says 'tests have established', which leads me to wonder if the 'testing' might actually be isotopes and not DNA. In which case it should be thrown out the window imo.

Personally I don't think the reconstruction (although I also doubt it's that accurate) looks particularly Romani, she looks more Irish to me. Whilst it was probably rare for Eastern European traveller communities to make it to the UK back then, it was extremely common for Irish people to come over, especially to places like London, Liverpool and Manchester. But tbh I've known English people who look like the reconstruction so I wouldn't really put any salt into the 'phenotype' it seems to be.

 

[Carovb5]

Very long shot but the teeth & face-shape of Harmina Gulien remind me of this doe. Teeth seem to align similar to hers.

Missing since 29-09-1989
in the Netherlands.
27 yo
5months pregnant then.

Harmina Gulien

www.politie.nl

 

[GreyPhantom]

Very long shot but the teeth & face-shape of Harmina Gulien remind me of this doe. Teeth seem to align similar to hers.

Missing since 29-09-1989
in the Netherlands.
27 yo
5months pregnant then.

Harmina Gulien

www.politie.nl

Interesting but it says disappeared in 1989 so too late for Angel.

Even though her mortem is '75 to '88, most investigators are certain it's mid 70s based on her attire.

 

[GreyPhantom]

The UK gypsy/traveller community are both. There are Irish Travellers and there are Romani Gypsies, they don't usually cross over.

I'm from the UK and had a close friend in secondary school who called herself a canal gypsy, her family had lived on canal boats for generations and before that they lived in caravans and such. She had dark brown hair and slightly tanned skin. Her family had been in the UK for centuries as far as she knew. She and her family were lovely people. I would say she had a similar look to her as a Hungarian singer I know of who is Romani (Joci Papai). His DNA test (he took one for a publicity thing) came back quite varied. 33% Indian, 30% Greek/South Italian, 12% Baltic, 11% Sardinian, 13% various other ethnicities including Middle East and Spain. But it was My Heritage which should be taken with a heavy pinch of salt imo. I would love to see a proper breakdown of what Angel's DNA said but it just says 'tests have established', which leads me to wonder if the 'testing' might actually be isotopes and not DNA. In which case it should be thrown out the window imo.

Personally I don't think the reconstruction (although I also doubt it's that accurate) looks particularly Romani, she looks more Irish to me. Whilst it was probably rare for Eastern European traveller communities to make it to the UK back then, it was extremely common for Irish people to come over, especially to places like London, Liverpool and Manchester. But tbh I've known English people who look like the reconstruction so I wouldn't really put any salt into the 'phenotype' it seems to be.

I thought Isotope testing shows where they lived, not their genetic heritage. For someone her age, I would be surprised if the multi continent determination was based on isotopes (lived locations) so it's most certainly her DNA.

 

[seasideForest]

Maybe, but aren't UK "gypsies" more Irish in origin then Eastern European Roma. To me she resembles much more the Roma style gypsy.

The word 'gypsy' supposedly developed from 'Egypt' because a long time ago in England they were thought to have come from Egypt originally.

In my previous post I gave you the Wikipedia link which lists and briefly explains the different type of 'gypsies' in the UK. Read it and note that there were Romani people in Britain long before the Eastern European Roma came to the UK!

 

[MarziPanda]

I thought Isotope testing shows where they lived, not their genetic heritage. For someone her age, I would be surprised if the multi continent determination was based on isotopes (lived locations) so it's most certainly her DNA.

Yes, it shows where someone grew up based on what foods they ate and water they drank. There's an American Doe from a similar time where they think she's Greek based on her isotopes showing she may have grown up in a small part of Greece (isotopes rarely seem to be correct however). But the way the BBC article words it means it could still be based on isotopes - is most likely European but could have come from the Middle East or Indian subcontinents. Come from, not have had heritage in. I think both options are possible. We have done DNA ethnicity estimates before (rarely) so it wouldn't be the first time, I'm just saying there's a possibility these are isotope estimates.

Probably based on DNA but not definite imo

 

[Susikatze]

Yes, it shows where someone grew up based on what foods they ate and water they drank. There's an American Doe from a similar time where they think she's Greek based on her isotopes showing she may have grown up in a small part of Greece (isotopes rarely seem to be correct however). But the way the BBC article words it means it could still be based on isotopes - is most likely European but could have come from the Middle East or Indian subcontinents. Come from, not have had heritage in. I think both options are possible. We have done DNA ethnicity estimates before (rarely) so it wouldn't be the first time, I'm just saying there's a possibility these are isotope estimates.

Probably based on DNA but not definite imo

I believe it is based on isotopes. They have proved to be more often wrong than not

 

[Blurgle]

Isotope analysis has value for historical remains, because in the past nearly everyone ate local food and drank locally produced beverages. These days people might not even drink local water.

 

[GreyPhantom]

Isotope analysis has value for historical remains, because in the past nearly everyone ate local food and drank locally produced beverages. These days people might not even drink local water.

But in the 50s - 70s, they likely did consume only local food and water so it could be valuable for this particular case.

However, I still believe that the mixed background that Manchester PD is referring to is DNA based.

 

[iamshadow21]

But in the 50s - 70s, they likely did consume only local food and water so it could be valuable for this particular case.

However, I still believe that the mixed background that Manchester PD is referring to is DNA based.

Evelyn Colon, the isotopes had her pegged as coming from Central Europe. I don't think she'd ever left New Jersey until her body was found in Pennsylvania. She was killed in 1976, and had spent the 1960s to mid 70s eating and drinking produce and water from Jersey.

It's junk science.

Murder of Evelyn Colon - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

MOO

 

[Blurgle]

But in the 50s - 70s, they likely did consume only local food and water so it could be valuable for this particular case.

However, I still believe that the mixed background that Manchester PD is referring to is DNA based.

Even by the 1950s the majority of produce being sold in the US was grown on large farms in the South annd Southwest and nationally distributed. Dairy, meat, and even beverages were also widely distributed.

 

[ZaZara]

Friendly reminder that this is a case from the UK.

If the Angel of the Meadow had been found in the US, she would most likely already have been identified by @othram


So very frustrating......

 

[Melt71]

Friendly reminder that this is a case from the UK.

If the Angel of the Meadow had been found in the US, she would most likely already have been identified by @othram


So very frustrating......

So true. As Othram points out in this article on their website

Angel of the Meadow

In 2010, skeletal remains of a murdered (and likely assaulted) woman were found in Manchester, UK. Will the UK permit advanced DNA testing to identify her?

dnasolves.com

 

[wtiger]

Miller street (body found there) is just off the ring road - so entirely possible that she was brought by vehicle from some other area around that ring road to be dumped.

 

[hey2525]

Not sure if mentioned but I found this research article featuring Jane Doe.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/276091207_Radiocarbon_Analysis_of_Modern_Skeletal_Remains_to_Determine_Year_of_Birth_and_Death-A_Case_Study

 

[iamshadow21]

Not sure if mentioned but I found this research article featuring Jane Doe.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/276091207_Radiocarbon_Analysis_of_Modern_Skeletal_Remains_to_Determine_Year_of_Birth_and_Death-A_Case_Study

They mentioned that she could have had some African ancestry.

I'd like to see DNA on that, it looks like they were using skull morphology.

MOO

 

[Deleted member 306904]

This would fit into police's believe that 'Angel' died in the 70's.

I was wearing items like that in 1968, I had one in burgundy and another in navy.

 

[hey2525]

AI Witness made an AI rendition of her.

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I stand by my prediction that she is of Roma (aka gypsy) heritage based on her East Indian features. That she was likely a recent migrant from Eastern Europe to Manchester in the late 60s/early 70s.

That died in 76' to 78' and was around 25 years old.

I think she was doing under the table labour work at a home, hotel or restaurant and her male employer/boss sexually assaulted and killed her.

A facial reconstruction is just a likeness. The problem with the AI is that it could be misleading. They aren’t even sure she’s white. In the facial reconstruction they blur out what could be misleading and don’t add colour because her skin colour is unknown.