Deceased/Not Found UK - Margaret Fleming, 19, Inverclyde, Scotland, 17 Dec 1999 *Guilty*

[jiminy]

You could be right Ironside, been done before. Don't know whether that counts as evidence though? Also I have been pondering on why after a year of silence this pair suddenly spoke in public, wonder what prompted that - money ??
ETA = money and arrogance

I wondered if it could have been framed as an opportunity for them to speak out about the forced sale of their house. They were pretty vocal about that. Obviously, to reach the part of the story where they lost their house, the story of Margaret would have to be covered. We only saw a couple of minutes of the interview but who knows how long it actually took. And how many takes, trying to repeat the same lies over and over and make them convincing.

 

[Shiressleuth]

In the interview, we all saw the expression of AJ when asked what would she say to M if she could. When they were taken in for questioning, they would have been immediately separated and I believe AJ could have given important information - she may even have implicated EC, whether intending to or not . 18 years is a long period of time to get your stories exactly to match. If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything. So we shall see.

 

[Satchie]

This is from the Police Scotland crime recording manual. Not sure it makes things clearer, but maybe Margaret wanted to leave E & A's home. I don't think it's overly cynical to think that the only interest in Margaret's well being was financial.

Thanks for that link.

I think the charge of assault must be from a separate incident, since it specifically means an attack causing injury to a person, without the injury being serious enough to have killed them.

any of the following injuries whether or not detained in hospital,  Fractures - fractures mean the breaking or cracking of a bone. Note: Nose is cartilage not bone so a ‘broken nose’ should not be classified as a Serious Assault unless it meets one of the other criteria.  Internal injuries  Severe concussion  Lacerations requiring sutures, or equivalent, which may lead to impairment or disfigurement  Any other injury which may lead to impairment or disfigurement "

www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&...27/232757/scottish-crime-recording-standard%3 p 108

If police theorize that she died as a result of a violent assault, then that assault leads to a charge of murder, just the same as if she died as a result of strangulation or suffocation, overdose of drugs or poison, being pushed down stairs, drowning, being shot.

To put it another way, if A punches B in the eye, that's assault. If A throws B to the ground and kicks them repeatedly in the head, that's attempted murder, if the person dies from the deliberate beating, that's murder, there's no assault charge.

I think the police have evidence that she was assaulted, before she disappeared.

 

[jessie]

Thanks for that link.

I think the charge of assault must be from a separate incident, since it specifically means an attack causing injury ~ RSBM ~
I think the police have evidence that she was assaulted, before she disappeared.

Interesting. Do you think at the last public sighting of Margaret in 1999 she was seen with some type of injuries?

I did wonder if maybe she had been treated at hospital for some type of injuries (A&E) and it is quite possible that could have been before that 'family gathering' of course.

 

[Karisuma]

Hi everyone, I've only just joined but have been keeping an eye on the developing story since it was first brought to peoples attentions. I noticed this piece in the local paper the Greenock Telegraph which seems to go into some specific detail of what they believe happened. It of course doesn't indicate how they came to these conclusions and I suppose this should be treated with a certain wariness as the case has yet to be brought forward. I just thought the link would be useful to others who are also following the story closely and want to understand the charges brought against the accused.

http://www.greenocktelegraph.co.uk/news/15626403.EXCLUSIVE__The_full_details_of_what_prosecutors_say_happened_to_missing_Inverkip_woman_Margaret_Fleming/

 

[sar2them1984]

Interesting that the dates are so very specific....

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[lizziginne]

Interesting that the dates are so very specific....

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My thoughts too! How did they come up with those dates? Maybe that’s when someone came to the house, a friend or something, and she definitely wasn’t there?


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[Legally Bland]

Hi everyone, I've only just joined but have been keeping an eye on the developing story since it was first brought to peoples attentions. I noticed this piece in the local paper the Greenock Telegraph which seems to go into some specific detail of what they believe happened. It of course doesn't indicate how they came to these conclusions and I suppose this should be treated with a certain wariness as the case has yet to be brought forward. I just thought the link would be useful to others who are also following the story closely and want to understand the charges brought against the accused.

http://www.greenocktelegraph.co.uk/...d_to_missing_Inverkip_woman_Margaret_Fleming/

Welcome and thanks for the link.

Crown prosecutors claim that, between November 1 in 1997 and 5 January in 2000, they both abducted Margaret and locked her in a room within the property, where she was then held against her will.

While held captive, it is alleged that they assaulted her, cut her hair, seized hold of her and then bound her arms and wrists with tape.
A second charge libelled against Cairney and Jones says that between December 18 in 1999 and 5 January in 2000, while acting together, that by inflicting blunt force trauma on Margaret or other means presently unknown, they did murder her.

Poor Margaret. This is worse than I thought it was going to be.

 

[Ironside]

I am speechless!


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[jessie]

Thanks Lb. OMG, Poor Margaret, poor soul. Much worse than I expected.. :rose: :rose:

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Hi everyone, I've only just joined but have been keeping an eye on the developing story since it was first brought to peoples attentions. I noticed this piece in the local paper the Greenock Telegraph which seems to go into some specific detail of what they believe happened. It of course doesn't indicate how they came to these conclusions and I suppose this should be treated with a certain wariness as the case has yet to be brought forward. I just thought the link would be useful to others who are also following the story closely and want to understand the charges brought against the accused.

http://www.greenocktelegraph.co.uk/news/15626403.EXCLUSIVE__The_full_details_of_what_prosecutors_say_happened_to_missing_Inverkip_woman_Margaret_Fleming/

Welcome, Karisuma!! Thanks for this info, sad to say I'm not shocked by any of it, hoping Avril will fill in all the blanks now she's away from that narcissistic, controlling bully. (not saying she's entirely innocent, but...)

See my sig link for our UK case thread.

 

[Ironside]

Avril must have cracked. I can't see how else they'd get that detail about the haircutting.


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[jessie]

And those dates are very specific - how on earth ?

added link referred to. http://www.greenocktelegraph.co.uk/...d_to_missing_Inverkip_woman_Margaret_Fleming/

 

[Legally Bland]

Maybe the dates came from someone who saw MF at the party and possibly visited A and E on 5th Jan and noticed MF absent. It could even be 2 different people.

18th December was the day after MF was last seen at the family party.

5th Jan could have meaning for someone, a birthday etc. New year was on a weekend, so the 5th would probably be the first day back at work in Scotland.

https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=2000&country=9

Pure guess - postman?

 

[JerricaBenton]

Those events and dates are very specific, I wonder how they pieced it together!

 

[Ironside]

Perhaps a bank transaction of some sort was done on the 5th January?


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[jessie]

Been reading back from the start of this thread to re read old links but most of the MSM links are now NOT FOUND annoyingly but this one still exists -

http://news.sky.com/story/garden-dug-up-in-search-for-missing-margaret-fleming-10693834

Ms Fleming, who is believed to have learning difficulties, is thought to have attended James Watt College in Greenock between 1996 and 1998, and officers want to hear from anyone who remembers her from that time.

Mr Livingstone said: "I am still appealing to anyone who may have information about Margaret, to help us build a more accurate picture of where she has been and with whom she has been associating over the past 20 years.

"If anyone remembers Margaret from James Watt College in 1996, 1997 or 1998, whether a student or lecturer, please get in touch. We have spoken to a friend she met there but we are keen to find out if there is anyone else who may still be in touch with her.


So as the prosecution case mentions dates from Nov 1997 - Jan 2000 would this be when Margaret was still at college and perhaps the information police have gained comes from Margaret's peers or tutors at that time ?
She would have been 16/17 in 1997 ? Sounds as if that pair started claiming the benefits in 1999.

 

[Antonia]

I've been wondering if the BBC video will disappear soon, it's still there at the moment: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-41542875

EC just defies belief! Apart from all the rubbish about M being a gangmaster in Poland, he has the audacity to say she was clean when he saw her, but has he seen the state of himself?! He's filthy, and vile with it.

RIP Margaret, you poor soul.

 

[Satchie]

between November 1 in 1997 and 5 January in 2000, they both abducted Margaret and locked her in a room within the property, where she was then held against her will.

I really wonder, did April tell this, or did someone, some people, have suspicions but never went to police.

 

[Rayemonde]

Or maybe LE found diaries in the house and one of them wrote at the time what had happened?