UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #10

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  • #241
<modsnip - quoted post removed - sub judice>

The more experienced nurse was treating the child in the next area---she just needed a less experienced nurse to assist her, maybe to hold the child still or to help her in some way, and to also observe so she can learn to do the same things.

You wouldn't send all of your band 6 nurses out of one area and into another area unless is was a crash cart situation. JMO
 
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  • #242
I think that would depend on what a perpetrator wants from a situation...how involved...as in wanting to watch for example

And allegedly wanting to watch the drama of the resuscitation doesn't mean you want it to be successful.

And LL allegedly pausing the monitor (as suspected in the Baby K case we're yet to hear full details of) and not wanting to call the crash team straight away as the other nurse claims in Baby I's final fatal collapse, if guilty, could suggest that she wanted the babies to be as close to death's door as possible, and less likely to be resuscitated ,before the crash team got there.
 
  • #243
Re the second TPN bag. I forget the exact timing but the alleged posioinng of the "first" TPN bag took place not long after a colleague had texted LL saying LL needed a break from the deaths/collapses being on her shift.

IMO If LL was allegedly cunning enough to think up a way of harming babies that would continue onto the next shift and implicate somebody other than herself.... then she was also cunning enough to think up a back up plan in case the nurses on the next shift suspected the TPN bag was the source of the low blood sugars and changed it. Because the alternative is that if they suspected that the TPN bag was the source and changed it, and then the baby was fine, they would know that there was something dodgy about the first TPN bag, which would link back to LL. The medical expert said that the blood sugar records and the length of time that they were low for meant that the insulin was administered continously rather than in one go . If they had tested that first bag, it would be even worse for LL.

So yes, if guilty, it would make sense that she might also poison the next TPN bag in the fridge or maybe even more than one if they weren't stored in any particular order. It was said that only baby F was using TPN bags at that time so unless another baby started using them in the meantime, the likelihood was that any TPN bag in the fridge would go to Baby F. And even if a posioned bag did go to another baby, if guilty, it would still achieve the alleged possible aim of a baby being harmed on a shift LL was not working on.


Althought tbh I think it's probably more likely that they didn't change the TPN bag.
All JMO
 
  • #244
Re the second TPN bag. I forget the exact timing but the alleged posioinng of the "first" TPN bag took place not long after a colleague had texted LL saying LL needed a break from the deaths/collapses being on her shift.

IMO If LL was allegedly cunning enough to think up a way of harming babies that would continue onto the next shift and implicate somebody other than herself.... then she was also cunning enough to think up a back up plan in case the nurses on the next shift suspected the TPN bag was the source of the low blood sugars and changed it. Because the alternative is that if they suspected that the TPN bag was the source and changed it, and then the baby was fine, they would know that there was something dodgy about the first TPN bag, which would link back to LL. The medical expert said that the blood sugar records and the length of time that they were low for meant that the insulin was administered continously rather than in one go . If they had tested that first bag, it would be even worse for LL.

So yes, if guilty, it would make sense that she might also poison the next TPN bag in the fridge or maybe even more than one if they weren't stored in any particular order. It was said that only baby F was using TPN bags at that time so unless another baby started using them in the meantime, the likelihood was that any TPN bag in the fridge would go to Baby F. And even if a posioned bag did go to another baby, if guilty, it would still achieve the alleged possible aim of a baby being harmed on a shift LL was not working on.


Althought tbh I think it's probably more likely that they didn't change the TPN bag.
All JMO
"Althought tbh I think it's probably more likely that they didn't change the TPN bag."


That's ^^^ what I lean towards at this time.

But it's also possible that all the bags were infused with insulin. What would she care?
 
  • #245
Chester Standard Recap from yesterday, including Dr. Bohin testifying to her assumption there would have had to have been two poisoned bags : Lucy Letby trial: Baby ‘received two bags of poisoned feed’


Dan O'Donaghue of the BBC.
I'm at Manchester Crown Court again today covering the murder trial of nurse Lucy Letby. We're expecting to hear from medical experts this morning in relation to Child F, who the Crown say was poisoned with insulin by Ms Letby in August 2015

Yvonne Griffiths, who is a neonatal unit manager at the Countess of Chester, is first in the witness box today. She's giving evidence on Total Parenteral Nutrition (TPN) bags and how they are stored at the hospital

The jury are being shown a photo of the treatment room at the Countess of Chester where medicines and kit was stored. Ms Griffiths is explaining that there was one set of keys for a refrigerator that stored controlled drugs

She says that there wasn't a system for accessing the fridge, if a nurse needed anything they would just ask for the key

Jury is now being shown images of the inside of the fridge, Ms Griffiths says insulin was stored in there

A medicines requisition booklet from summer 2015 is now being shown to the court - this was used by nurses to request more stock. We're being shown an entry from June which shows there was a request for a babiven maintenance bag


Ms Letby's defence lawyer Ben Myers KC is now questioning the witness. It's clarified that the treatment room wasn't locked and was open to doctors and nurses 24/7

Neonatal nurse Kate Bramall has just been in the witness box. She was on shift when a TPN bag was delivered to the unit for Child F. She was asked if she had ever added anything to a bag. 'No, it's not something we do', she said.

Asked if she had ever added insulin to a bag, she said :'No never' She explained insulin is administered through a separate syringe

Another nurse, who was also on shift, has just been asked the same questions. She again said she had never added anything to a TPN bag


Another nurse, Cheryl Cuthbertson-Taylor, has just been asked the same questions. Again she told the court she had never added anything to a TPN bag

Another nurse, Valerie Thomas, is in the witness box and is again being asked the same questions. She says she has never administered a TPN bag to a child or added anything to a bag

A statement from Consultant Obstetrician & Gynaecologist Simon Wood is now being read to the court. He helped to carry out the C-Section on the mother of Child E and F. He said the twins were 'born in good condition'



Expert medical witness Dr Dewi Evans returns to the witness box. He was asked to review the case by Cheshire Police and produced a number of reports on the events at the Countess of Chester

Dr Evans said there was 'only one explanation' for the 'astonishing' levels of insulin found in Child F's blood.
These were very, very striking results. There's only one explanation for this, (Child F) had received insulin from some outside source', he said.

Dr Evans said he had concluded the drug had most likely been added to the baby's Total Parenteral Nutrition (TPN) bag, which is used to intravenously provide feeds to infants.

Ben Myers KC, defending, has no questions for Dr Evans on his evidence

Medical expert Dr Sandie Bohin, who reviewed Dr Evans' findings, is now in the witness box. She's asked if she agrees with Dr Evans that this was a case of insulin poisoning via TPN bag. 'Yes', she says

Again, Mr Myers has no questions for the witness. That concludes her evidence. Police intelligence analyst Claire Hocknell is now in the witness box, she is taking the jury through sequencing evidence

A summary of Ms Letby's police interview, carried out in 2019, in relation to Child F is read to the court. In that interview Ms Letby denied adding insulin to a TPN bag

That's it for today and that concludes evidence related to Child F. Tomorrow the court will move on to Child G.
 
  • #246
Evening all. I have been lurking here for sometime, reading with interest the numerous well-reasoned and balanced submissions, and have finally decided to create an account so that I can participate in the discussions .

This trial is unusual in many respects, but one of the key features is that for each charge, the jury is going to have to first decide whether the medical evidence put forward demonstrates that a murder or attempted murder has taken place; only if the answer is “yes” do you then move onto the question of whether the evidence shows that LL is guilty of that charge. This is unusual in that most murder/attempted murder trials start from a position of the defence and the prosecution agreeing that a murder or attempted murder has taken place, but the question for the trial is whether the accused is the one that has done it.

I think it is important to keep the questions separate when considering each charge so that we don’t end up conflating the question of whether there has been a crime in the first place with whether or not LL is guilty of the crime .

I have real concerns with the accuracy/reliability of the expert medical evidence submitted by the prosecution in this case, which all stems from the circumstances of one of the babies (I think it is Baby K, so I will refer to Baby K in this post). To be clear, I am not referring to the two insulin poisoning cases: they seem fairly straightforward in that they can’t have been accidental poisonings (on the basis that no one has suggested a credible explanation for how they could have accidentally been poisoned, eg the baby in the adjacent cot was on insulin, so maybe an over tired , over worked nurse administered insulin to the wrong baby).

For baby K, the prosecution originally charged LL with murder and attempted murder when she was charged in November 2020 following an investigation which had been going on for several years. Then, in June 2022, during a pre-trial hearing, the prosecution stated that it was offering “no evidence” in relation to the murder charge. LL is now on trial for the AM of Baby K, but not the murder .

I find this quite astonishing . Note that LL is still accused of AM for Baby K, so the prosecution still believe LL did something unlawful to Baby K. The issue is that from a medical causation point of view, the prosecution is no longer of the opinion that whatever LL allegedly did to Baby K actually caused Baby K’s ultimate death.

As has correctly been pointed out on here many times, the prosecution has a high bar before they bring criminal charges for murder or AM. They don’t just file charges willy-nilly. Before filing the charges in November 2020, the prosecution will have obtained expert medical evidence on the cases, and in particular, on whether the medical evidence shows that the alleged unlawful acts of LL caused the deaths of the babies. We can assume therefore that the expert medical evidence they received prior to November 2020 was that the medical evidence did support a murder charge; or, even if the medical evidence was not without doubt in relation to the question of whether the alleged unlawful act caused the death, there was a strong argument that it was the cause.

Something then happened in June 2022 to make the prosecution abandon the murder charge. The only explanation I can see given that the AM charge is still running is that the medical experts discovered some other medical evidence which completely destroyed their earlier opinions regarding the medical cause of Baby K’s death.

To have medical experts who have arrived at a conclusion that on the scientific facts, a murder has taken place, and then to have them change their minds less than two years later to say that on the scientific facts, a murder has not taken place, would make me (as a juror) very concerned regarding the reliability of the expert medical evidence in relation to the other charges.

To answer a question that will no doubt be raised , the reason why I have concluded that the medical evidence has changed is because of the way in which the murder charge for Baby K was abandoned. The prosecution can “discontinue” proceedings in relation to a charge at any point before the trial starts. If you “discontinue” the charge, then as the name suggests, the trial does not proceed, but the prosecution is free to re-file charges at a later date if it wishes. But that is not what the prosecution did with Baby K. Instead, the prosecution offered “no evidence” for the murder charge. When you offer “no evidence”, that results in an acquittal and the judge recorded a not guilty verdict against LL in relation to the murder charge of Baby K. That therefore means that the prosecution cannot ever re-file a murder charge for Baby K against LL due to double jeopardy laws (unless it can persuade a court that one of the limited exceptions to the double jeopardy law applies).

To my mind, if the expert medical evidence had just been diluted a bit , in that the experts were previously saying that they were 90% confident that the medical evidence proved the murder had been committed but on reflection, they were now only 60% (or less) sure, then in my opinion, the prosecution would have chosen to “discontinue” the murder charge rather than offer “no evidence”. If there was still a chance that a murder could be proved at some time on the medical evidence, the prosecution would have wanted to preserve its position to ensure that it could re-file charges one day in the event that medical or scientific advances meant that the charge can be proven. And they would therefore preserve their ability to get justice or Baby K in relation to the murder charge. The fact that they didn’t do this and instead offered “no evidence”, which results in a not guilty verdict, to me, says that the revised medical evidence left no doubt regarding whether a murder had taken place: the revised evidence was clear that it had not.

JMO etc
 
  • #247
Welcome @GoodDayToYouSir

I think baby K was exceptionally tiny and premature, and died a couple of days after being transferred to a better hospital, following the alleged attack. Because she was so frail it would have been very difficult to determine whether this attack contributed significantly to her demise. The prosecution had only put forward the fact the baby soon died after the alleged incident (3 days IIRC) as evidence for it being murder. Even though it's obvious that such an attack (if it occurred) would have been very harmful for Baby K, that's not really good enough when the baby was so fragile in the first place, and we don't even know yet (legally speaking) whether the murder attempt definitely happened.
 
  • #248
"8.10am – LL made a nursing note: ' noted to be pale in cot by myself at 03:20hrs … apnoea alarm in situ and had not sounded. On examination centrally white, minimal shallow breaths followed by gasping observed.'"


This is a very interesting nursing note.

She's recorded the events as the designated nurse says they happened.

"and had not sounded", shows (without a shadow of a doubt IMO) that she knew that the apnoea/not breathing event happened before she noted the pallor from the doorway.

There's no reason to make a record of an alarm not sounding before the event that would make it sound. She wouldn't know that unless she already knew baby I stopped breathing before she noted she was pale.

This is the second time in 3 weeks (baby G, 21 Sep) that she discovered babies requiring resuscitation without alarms sounding, while not reporting it to managers, and not mentioning it to her friend when she texted her about baby G.

All MOO
The note must have been a retrospective note.
Interesting how she notes things at times though. I noticed in one of her recent notes she put that the parent had left the room when the baby vommited. I mean who writes that? Surely note taking should be for medical management, not for accountability. I found that particular note very weird.
 
  • #249
Her note taking is strange at times I agree.
She tends to over embellish unnecessary details in how I perceive it to fit her own narrative.
It’s a common trait in people who lie as they give far more detail than they need or is required.
Welcome aboard “ Good day to you sir “ it does sometime feel like you are nailing jelly to a wall at times with some comments but we all have our differing views !
 
  • #250
Evening all. I have been lurking here for sometime, reading with interest the numerous well-reasoned and balanced submissions, and have finally decided to create an account so that I can participate in the discussions .

This trial is unusual in many respects, but one of the key features is that for each charge, the jury is going to have to first decide whether the medical evidence put forward demonstrates that a murder or attempted murder has taken place; only if the answer is “yes” do you then move onto the question of whether the evidence shows that LL is guilty of that charge. This is unusual in that most murder/attempted murder trials start from a position of the defence and the prosecution agreeing that a murder or attempted murder has taken place, but the question for the trial is whether the accused is the one that has done it.

I think it is important to keep the questions separate when considering each charge so that we don’t end up conflating the question of whether there has been a crime in the first place with whether or not LL is guilty of the crime .

I have real concerns with the accuracy/reliability of the expert medical evidence submitted by the prosecution in this case, which all stems from the circumstances of one of the babies (I think it is Baby K, so I will refer to Baby K in this post). To be clear, I am not referring to the two insulin poisoning cases: they seem fairly straightforward in that they can’t have been accidental poisonings (on the basis that no one has suggested a credible explanation for how they could have accidentally been poisoned, eg the baby in the adjacent cot was on insulin, so maybe an over tired , over worked nurse administered insulin to the wrong baby).

For baby K, the prosecution originally charged LL with murder and attempted murder when she was charged in November 2020 following an investigation which had been going on for several years. Then, in June 2022, during a pre-trial hearing, the prosecution stated that it was offering “no evidence” in relation to the murder charge. LL is now on trial for the AM of Baby K, but not the murder .

I find this quite astonishing . Note that LL is still accused of AM for Baby K, so the prosecution still believe LL did something unlawful to Baby K. The issue is that from a medical causation point of view, the prosecution is no longer of the opinion that whatever LL allegedly did to Baby K actually caused Baby K’s ultimate death.

As has correctly been pointed out on here many times, the prosecution has a high bar before they bring criminal charges for murder or AM. They don’t just file charges willy-nilly. Before filing the charges in November 2020, the prosecution will have obtained expert medical evidence on the cases, and in particular, on whether the medical evidence shows that the alleged unlawful acts of LL caused the deaths of the babies. We can assume therefore that the expert medical evidence they received prior to November 2020 was that the medical evidence did support a murder charge; or, even if the medical evidence was not without doubt in relation to the question of whether the alleged unlawful act caused the death, there was a strong argument that it was the cause.

Something then happened in June 2022 to make the prosecution abandon the murder charge. The only explanation I can see given that the AM charge is still running is that the medical experts discovered some other medical evidence which completely destroyed their earlier opinions regarding the medical cause of Baby K’s death.

To have medical experts who have arrived at a conclusion that on the scientific facts, a murder has taken place, and then to have them change their minds less than two years later to say that on the scientific facts, a murder has not taken place, would make me (as a juror) very concerned regarding the reliability of the expert medical evidence in relation to the other charges.

To answer a question that will no doubt be raised , the reason why I have concluded that the medical evidence has changed is because of the way in which the murder charge for Baby K was abandoned. The prosecution can “discontinue” proceedings in relation to a charge at any point before the trial starts. If you “discontinue” the charge, then as the name suggests, the trial does not proceed, but the prosecution is free to re-file charges at a later date if it wishes. But that is not what the prosecution did with Baby K. Instead, the prosecution offered “no evidence” for the murder charge. When you offer “no evidence”, that results in an acquittal and the judge recorded a not guilty verdict against LL in relation to the murder charge of Baby K. That therefore means that the prosecution cannot ever re-file a murder charge for Baby K against LL due to double jeopardy laws (unless it can persuade a court that one of the limited exceptions to the double jeopardy law applies).

To my mind, if the expert medical evidence had just been diluted a bit , in that the experts were previously saying that they were 90% confident that the medical evidence proved the murder had been committed but on reflection, they were now only 60% (or less) sure, then in my opinion, the prosecution would have chosen to “discontinue” the murder charge rather than offer “no evidence”. If there was still a chance that a murder could be proved at some time on the medical evidence, the prosecution would have wanted to preserve its position to ensure that it could re-file charges one day in the event that medical or scientific advances meant that the charge can be proven. And they would therefore preserve their ability to get justice or Baby K in relation to the murder charge. The fact that they didn’t do this and instead offered “no evidence”, which results in a not guilty verdict, to me, says that the revised medical evidence left no doubt regarding whether a murder had taken place: the revised evidence was clear that it had not.

JMO etc
Welcome to WS! I am glad that you made the account so you could chime in. The more the merrier. :)
I get your point. It could look sketchy that they went with that automatic acquittal---I agree.

But there may be a legal strategy behind it we aren't aware of. I don't think these are dumb or incompetent attorneys so there may be a reason they decided to go that way.

That one particular case does not make me doubt all the others. I look at the complexity involved trying to investigate and build this vast case over the past several years. They probably investigated a hundred or more cases all together. They may have believed she had done something malicious in other cases but didn't feel they had enough proof in them all. I am not surprised that they pulled back in one or two of them as the trial began.

The jurors are hearing and seeing a lot more detailed evidence and nuance than we are from tweets and magazine write ups. I do believe the case is more established than we have seen so far.

I am looking at the big picture and the established timeline. When we see LL go on vacation for 8 days, and then on her return, allegedly her bad luck suddenly returns, and there are 3 babies who collapse within 3 days , starting on the day she returns from her vacay. [Those were the last ones before she was pulled from the floor.]

It is those kinds of coincidences that make me think there might be something to the alleged accusations. I think that in her final weeks she allegedly became very reckless, even though she was aware of the cloak of suspicion surrounding her. It seemed like a compulsion at that point? JMO
 
  • #251
From the information posted by @Sweeper2000 , I do find it interesting that the insulin was found in the system of the baby while Lucy wasn't there, after fluids had already been changed and hung. Which means that technically, the only confirmation of insulin happened when a) she wasn't there b) she hadn't hung the fluid. So it is conceivable that if it was maliciously done and not accidental, that someone during the day had done it.
 
  • #252
I think the prospect of two SK on one neonatal ward at the same time is as likely as noticing the completion of a baby in a cot with a canopy in the semi dark from 6’ away to be honest.
 
  • #253
From the information posted by @Sweeper2000 , I do find it interesting that the insulin was found in the system of the baby while Lucy wasn't there, after fluids had already been changed and hung. Which means that technically, the only confirmation of insulin happened when a) she wasn't there b) she hadn't hung the fluid. So it is conceivable that if it was maliciously done and not accidental, that someone during the day had done it.
It is also conceivable that the bag had never been changed and rehung. The defense has said many times that there is subpar care in this facility. If so, then they might not have changed the bag just because a line shredded.

Another conceivable possibility is that LL not only poisoned one bag, she poisoned two. Seeing as how she has been accused of dozens of similar incidents, why is it hard to believe she'd poison both bags?

There is proof of intentional malicious acts against the children. I highly doubt there is more than one person doing these attacks in that unit.
 
  • #254
I believe that in many cases of serial killers (sorry, don't have any stats), after the SK has been found guilty, sentenced and incarcerated, more victims often come to light. Often from different times and places. I wonder if this may turn out to be the case here, if LL is guilty and is found to be so.
 
  • #255
Welcome @GoodDayToYouSir

I think baby K was exceptionally tiny and premature, and died a couple of days after being transferred to a better hospital, following the alleged attack. Because she was so frail it would have been very difficult to determine whether this attack contributed significantly to her demise. The prosecution had only put forward the fact the baby soon died after the alleged incident (3 days IIRC) as evidence for it being murder. Even though it's obvious that such an attack (if it occurred) would have been very harmful for Baby K, that's not really good enough when the baby was so fragile in the first place, and we don't even know yet (legally speaking) whether the murder attempt definitely happened.

yes. in order to state baby K was murdered, the prosecution would have had to prove that the alleged attack was a substantial cause of death, which may have been impossible given the baby's fragile condition.

Causation​

The prosecution must show a causal link between the act/omission and the death. The act or omission must be a substantial cause of death, but it need not be the sole or main cause of death. It must have "more than minimally negligibly or trivially contributed to the death" - Lord Woolf MR in R v HM Coroner for Inner London ex p Douglas-Williams [1999] 1 All ER 344.
 
  • #256
From the information posted by @Sweeper2000 , I do find it interesting that the insulin was found in the system of the baby while Lucy wasn't there, after fluids had already been changed and hung. Which means that technically, the only confirmation of insulin happened when a) she wasn't there b) she hadn't hung the fluid. So it is conceivable that if it was maliciously done and not accidental, that someone during the day had done it.
The TPN bag was signed only by Letby, recording it ending at 12:25 am. Shortly afterwards Child F suffered a deterioration. All the nurses on that shift testified that they did not add insulin to the bag. I see no reason to doubt their testimony and Letby herself told police the insulin could not have been given by accident.

Dr. Bohin testified that it is usual practice to change the bag when a new long line is put in, but it's still not clear whether the bag was actually replaced. It was due to run for 48 hours so I would think it would still be more than halfway full by the time the line was changed.

The glucose levels were consistent with the insulin being delivered gradually over a period of time so whether the bag was changed or not, the first bag was likely contaminated.

It's also possible that a second bag was tampered with that was stored in the fridge.

Also, around the time of the handover Letby was texting a colleague about Baby F's twin, Baby E, and how his death was the "luck of the draw," that there was not a lot she could do and "a massive hemorrhage can
happen to any baby."

Then, after her shift and before the reading of the glucose levels at "1.7," Letby texts the designated nurse, "Did you hear what Child F's blood sugar was?," and tells her it was "1.8"

It had been recorded by Letby as being "2.9" at 5:00 am but she doesn't seem surprised that it had gone down drastically in such a short period of time.

As we've seen in other cases, Letby seems to be the only person on the ward that is not perplexed about the unexplained deaths and sudden collapses. She refers to the Baby's deaths as "fate" or the "luck of the draw," yet she is the only one who has a diagnosis or explanation for each incident.

As early as the first three alleged murders and after Baby B's near fatal collapse, there was talk on the ward about how odd the deaths were and of the mysterious mottling seen in the babies allegedly injected with air.

In contrast, Letby never appears curious about what could have caused the deaths, but seems to have an answer for every tragic incident.
 
  • #257
From the information posted by @Sweeper2000 , I do find it interesting that the insulin was found in the system of the baby while Lucy wasn't there, after fluids had already been changed and hung. Which means that technically, the only confirmation of insulin happened when a) she wasn't there b) she hadn't hung the fluid. So it is conceivable that if it was maliciously done and not accidental, that someone during the day had done it.


The low blood sugar readings started from when LL hung the first (if there were two) TPN bag and carried on throughout her shift then into the next shift, which the medical expert has said shows that the supply of insulin was continuous.The only reading that was slightly higher during LL's shift was the one LL recorded.

If there was a second bag we've been told that they kept "a couple" of stock bags in the fridge so if guilty,it's not like there were 20 odd additional TPN bags in the fridge that she would have had to poison. She could just have poisoned the next one in the fridge if they were stored in the order they would be used ,or if there were only a couple, poisoned both of them.

But we don't know for sure that there even was a second bag. The nurse said she "would've" changed the bag (ie that was what she normally would do) but that she had no independent memory of it. She also said she thought she would have made a note if she hadn't changed it and there was no note... BUT there was no note saying she had changed it either. The medical expert has said that if there was a second bag then it must have contained the same amount of insulin as the first bag that LL hung, as the blood sugar readings stayed low throughout the time the TPN bag/s was/were used. But an alternative explanation is that it was just the one bag throughout. Either way , the continous low blood sugar readings on LL's shift indicate that the TPN bag LL hung contained insulin. The argument is whether there was a second bag that did too or whether the bag was never changed.

The defence have not questioned that Baby F was deliberately poisoned with insulin nor that it was in the TPN bag. They didn't challenge the medical expert at all on those points. And even LL has not challenged that She's just said that she didn't do it. The defence are arguing that as the blood test that showed the high insulin was taken when the alleged second TPN bag was being used, that it can't have been LL. However as explained above the medical expert has said that the continuous low blood sugar levels, which started after LL hung the TPN bag , show that the insulin was administered continously for the period the blood sugars were low... and that period started shortly after LL hung that (first) TPN bag. The implication being that although the insulin blood tests weren't performed until the alleged second TPN bag, they would still have been abnormal if they had been tested on LL's shift.

imo
 
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  • #258
yes. in order to state baby K was murdered, the prosecution would have had to prove that the alleged attack was a substantial cause of death, which may have been impossible given the baby's fragile condition.

Causation​

The prosecution must show a causal link between the act/omission and the death. The act or omission must be a substantial cause of death, but it need not be the sole or main cause of death. It must have "more than minimally negligibly or trivially contributed to the death" - Lord Woolf MR in R v HM Coroner for Inner London ex p Douglas-Williams [1999] 1 All ER 344.
Exactly, that’s my point. To file a murder charge in the first place, the expert evidence must have been that LL’s alleged acts were a substantial cause of baby K’s death. But the expert evidence then apparently changed in the run up to June 2022, leading to the murder charge being abandoned.

I absolutely agree with you that the baby’s premature and fragile condition may have made it virtually impossible to say what the cause of her death was. But if that’s what the medical experts had said in November 2020 when the charges were originally filed, then I don’t think that the prosecution would (or could) have concluded that it was appropriate to file a murder charge for baby K. As public servants, the CPS cannot conclude that it is reasonable to file a murder charge unless at the time they make the charging decision, the medical evidence is that the alleged act was a substantial cause of the death. My point is that the CPS must have been told by the medical experts that LL’s alleged actions were a substantial cause of baby K’s death. But that expert medical evidence must then have changed, leading to the prosecution abandoning the charge in June 2022. And not only just discontinuing the murder charge, but offering “no evidence”, which leads to the judge entering a not guilty verdict in relation to the murder charge of Baby K.
 
  • #259
Evening all. I have been lurking here for sometime, reading with interest the numerous well-reasoned and balanced submissions, and have finally decided to create an account so that I can participate in the discussions .

This trial is unusual in many respects, but one of the key features is that for each charge, the jury is going to have to first decide whether the medical evidence put forward demonstrates that a murder or attempted murder has taken place; only if the answer is “yes” do you then move onto the question of whether the evidence shows that LL is guilty of that charge. This is unusual in that most murder/attempted murder trials start from a position of the defence and the prosecution agreeing that a murder or attempted murder has taken place, but the question for the trial is whether the accused is the one that has done it.

I think it is important to keep the questions separate when considering each charge so that we don’t end up conflating the question of whether there has been a crime in the first place with whether or not LL is guilty of the crime .

I have real concerns with the accuracy/reliability of the expert medical evidence submitted by the prosecution in this case, which all stems from the circumstances of one of the babies (I think it is Baby K, so I will refer to Baby K in this post). To be clear, I am not referring to the two insulin poisoning cases: they seem fairly straightforward in that they can’t have been accidental poisonings (on the basis that no one has suggested a credible explanation for how they could have accidentally been poisoned, eg the baby in the adjacent cot was on insulin, so maybe an over tired , over worked nurse administered insulin to the wrong baby).

For baby K, the prosecution originally charged LL with murder and attempted murder when she was charged in November 2020 following an investigation which had been going on for several years. Then, in June 2022, during a pre-trial hearing, the prosecution stated that it was offering “no evidence” in relation to the murder charge. LL is now on trial for the AM of Baby K, but not the murder .

I find this quite astonishing . Note that LL is still accused of AM for Baby K, so the prosecution still believe LL did something unlawful to Baby K. The issue is that from a medical causation point of view, the prosecution is no longer of the opinion that whatever LL allegedly did to Baby K actually caused Baby K’s ultimate death.

As has correctly been pointed out on here many times, the prosecution has a high bar before they bring criminal charges for murder or AM. They don’t just file charges willy-nilly. Before filing the charges in November 2020, the prosecution will have obtained expert medical evidence on the cases, and in particular, on whether the medical evidence shows that the alleged unlawful acts of LL caused the deaths of the babies. We can assume therefore that the expert medical evidence they received prior to November 2020 was that the medical evidence did support a murder charge; or, even if the medical evidence was not without doubt in relation to the question of whether the alleged unlawful act caused the death, there was a strong argument that it was the cause.

Something then happened in June 2022 to make the prosecution abandon the murder charge. The only explanation I can see given that the AM charge is still running is that the medical experts discovered some other medical evidence which completely destroyed their earlier opinions regarding the medical cause of Baby K’s death.

To have medical experts who have arrived at a conclusion that on the scientific facts, a murder has taken place, and then to have them change their minds less than two years later to say that on the scientific facts, a murder has not taken place, would make me (as a juror) very concerned regarding the reliability of the expert medical evidence in relation to the other charges.

To answer a question that will no doubt be raised , the reason why I have concluded that the medical evidence has changed is because of the way in which the murder charge for Baby K was abandoned. The prosecution can “discontinue” proceedings in relation to a charge at any point before the trial starts. If you “discontinue” the charge, then as the name suggests, the trial does not proceed, but the prosecution is free to re-file charges at a later date if it wishes. But that is not what the prosecution did with Baby K. Instead, the prosecution offered “no evidence” for the murder charge. When you offer “no evidence”, that results in an acquittal and the judge recorded a not guilty verdict against LL in relation to the murder charge of Baby K. That therefore means that the prosecution cannot ever re-file a murder charge for Baby K against LL due to double jeopardy laws (unless it can persuade a court that one of the limited exceptions to the double jeopardy law applies).

To my mind, if the expert medical evidence had just been diluted a bit , in that the experts were previously saying that they were 90% confident that the medical evidence proved the murder had been committed but on reflection, they were now only 60% (or less) sure, then in my opinion, the prosecution would have chosen to “discontinue” the murder charge rather than offer “no evidence”. If there was still a chance that a murder could be proved at some time on the medical evidence, the prosecution would have wanted to preserve its position to ensure that it could re-file charges one day in the event that medical or scientific advances meant that the charge can be proven. And they would therefore preserve their ability to get justice or Baby K in relation to the murder charge. The fact that they didn’t do this and instead offered “no evidence”, which results in a not guilty verdict, to me, says that the revised medical evidence left no doubt regarding whether a murder had taken place: the revised evidence was clear that it had not.

JMO etc
Welcome, and thank you for the interesting post.

I agree, the starting point must be whether or not each child was attacked, as opposed to collapsing/dying from natural causes.

I have noticed that in the case of baby I, the prosecution is alleging that LL attempted to murder her four times before succeeding in murdering her, yet she is only charged with one count of murder. I have not been able to establish from reading the government guidelines why that might be, considering that the alleged attempted murders were very clearly separated from the alleged murder by many days. Attempted murder (with the requisite intention to kill needed to prove the charge) would of course be treated as seriously as murder by a sentencing judge, because intention, mens rea, would not be diluted by the fact the victim’s life was saved multiple times by medical intervention. This leads to consideration of what a sentencing judge might consider an appropriate sentence, if the accused was guilty of attempting to murder a child four times before succeeding, and I think the outcome would always be one life sentence of a determinate period for the murder, not five separate sentences for attempting to do what was ultimately achieved.

I believe, based on baby I’s case, that the Crown had this in mind when they made their charging decision, even though I can see a case for arguing (in general, not relative to LL’s case) that a jury could decide that they are sure an accused individual carried out the attempted murders but they aren’t sure enough to convict on the actual murder charge. If the accused was found not guilty of murder in that case it would fall to the charging decision, a technicality, and the accused would walk free if not also charged with the attempted murders.

It's interesting to compare baby I with babies G, H, and N, who all survived, but where LL is charged with multiple counts of attempted murder. I can see a case for arguing that one attempt is not more serious than another, and to help secure a conviction each alleged attempt is charged, even though if found guilty the sentence is unlikely to be multiplied by the number of attempts. IMO

I think baby K is more complicated, and is unique, in the sense that LL was originally charged with attempted murder and murder. I don’t know if these were originally framed as alternative charges, always with the intention of being decided by legal advisers before trial, because I can’t see an argument for charging both, if we follow the examples in babies I, G, H and N. There are further cases where the prosecution says LL attempted to murder babies multiple times on the same shift, (A and E come to mind but there are probably others) and these also are only charged once, as murder.

Looking at the case of baby K, she was born at 25 weeks, weighing 1lb 8oz. Arrangements were in the process of being made to transfer her to a tertiary unit within an hour or so of her birth. According to the prosecution, she was sedated and her breathing tubes were secured to her headgear. It is alleged that LL interfered with her breathing tubes, paused the monitor alarm, and didn’t assist (the latter being an act of omission). Dr Jayaram noticed her sats were in the 80s and falling, which means the alarm, on the monitor which was on, would have sounded. The team turned up to transport her, and she died three days later. LL told police that she was 'possibly waiting to see if baby K self-corrected, and they don’t normally intervene straight away if the sats weren’t dangerously low'. A nursing expert consulted by the prosecution said that it was unlikely the designated nurse would have left baby K for more than a brief moment unless they were confident that the breathing tube was secure and that baby was inactive, and dismissed the idea that a competent nurse would delay intervention if the baby desaturated. Dr Evans said LL’s failure to summon help was unusual.

Over two years later, in 2018, three months before her arrest, LL looked up baby K’s parents on Facebook. So we know this was a baby who - had been at the CoCH for a total of 6 hours, wasn’t LL’s designated baby, had left the hospital alive, and LL had not been confronted over pausing the alarm or moving the breathing tubes - yet LL had a reason to recall this baby years later and look up her parents. The prosecution may have been of the view that this Facebook search was a heavy indicator of consciousness of guilt, considering the baby didn’t die for three days after leaving the Countess and the other circumstances.

Interestingly to prove a murder charge based on an earlier act, the prosecution must demonstrate chain of causation.

Causation​

The prosecution must show a causal link between the act/omission and the death. The act or omission must be a substantial cause of death, but it need not be the sole or main cause of death. It must have "more than minimally negligibly or trivially contributed to the death" - Lord Woolf MR in R v HM Coroner for Inner London ex p Douglas-Williams [1999] 1 All ER 344.

It does not matter that the act/omission by the defendant merely "hastened" the victim's death: R v Dyson (1909) 1 Cr App R 13.

However, where it is alleged that an omission was a substantial cause of death, causation is particularly difficult. It is necessary to prove to the criminal standard that, but for the omission, the deceased would not have died.

To break the "chain of causation" an intervening act must be such that it becomes the sole cause of the victim's death so as to relieve the defendant of liability - see R v Wallace (Berlinah) [2018] EWCA Crim 690; R v Kennedy (Simon) [2008] Crim. L.R. 222. Examples of intervening acts are:

  1. Third party interventions: Such an act will not break the chain unless it was a free, deliberate, informed, voluntary act, which was not reasonably foreseeable by a reasonable person: R v Pagett (1983) 76 Cr App R 279.
  2. Acts of God or nature, if entirely unforeseen and unconnected with the defendant's act.
  3. An act of the victim if not within the range of response which might be anticipated from a victim in his situation: R v Roberts (1972) 56 Cr App R 95 and R v Williams and Davis (1992) 95 Cr. App. R. 1. Note: Reeves v Metropolitan Police Commissioner [1999] UKHL 35 where it was accepted that if the police were aware that the prisoner was a known suicide risk then a special duty of care existed.
  4. Death resulting from any normal medical treatment employed to deal with a criminal injury must be regarded as caused by the criminal injury. It is only in the most extraordinary case that treatment designed to repair the harm done by the original attack could be regarded as the cause of the victim's death to the exclusion of the accused's act: R v Cheshire (1991) 3 All ER 670.
The defendant must take his victim as he finds him under the 'egg-shell skull' rule: R v LeBrun (1991) 4 All ER 673. As a result, any pre-dispositions or inherent weaknesses or vulnerabilities of the victim are deemed irrelevant.
Homicide: Murder and Manslaughter | The Crown Prosecution Service

I think the case of baby K may have been complicated by this chain of causation, having to prove that she didn’t ever recover from the initial alleged acts/omissions, during her three days of life at another hospital, and/or that she was ever in a condition that they could prove she would have lived but for the alleged acts/omissions, or that she died because of them.

Certainly I don’t think we have enough information to say that the medical experts advising the prosecution changed their opinions at any stage. It appears that what happened that morning at the Countess was largely a matter of opinion from a nursing expert. For all we know, the prosecution’s case may have always been heavily weighted by the Facebook search.

As regards alternative counts, the CPS website only goes into manslaughter as an alternative charge to murder, there is no reference to attempted murder being an alternative count, so I think on balance it was a charging decision that had to be made before trial - based upon the likelihood of securing a conviction, the acknowledged difficulties with proving causation, and bearing in mind that both charges are equally serious.

JMO

edited to say that I see there's a post above also referring to causation, so I hope I'm not repeating the same points that have already been made while I was writing my post!
 
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  • #260
I think the prospect of two SK on one neonatal ward at the same time is as likely as noticing the completion of a baby in a cot with a canopy in the semi dark from 6’ away to be honest.
I agree, the chances of two serial killers operating independently of one another on the same neonatal Ward during the same time period are negligible.

To be clear, I haven’t reached a decision yet on whether LL is guilty of any of the charges. At this stage, I am still considering whether the evidence shows that murders or attempted murders have in fact occurred in relation to each charge. My view at the moment is that I would conclude that some of the charges on which the prosecution has presented evidence so far have not been shown to be murders or AM. The evidence from the experts, coupled with the concessions elicited by Mr Myers during cross-examination from the experts, would likely lead me to conclude that a murder or AM has not taken place for some of the charges.

In relation to other charges which we’ve heard evidence on, I think that (subject of course to anything we subsequently hear when the defence presents its evidence), the prosecution has shown that a murder or AM has taken place. For example, I thought the evidence for baby A was very strong, and the insulin case of baby F is very clearly in my view an AM.

So once we’ve heard all of the evidence on all of the cases, I think as things stand at the moment, I would be eliminating certain charges on the grounds that a murder or AM has not been shown to have been committed. That then leaves the remaining charges where I do think that a murder or AM has been shown to have taken place . I will then look at those remaining charges and decide whether, on the evidence, LL should be found guilty or not (and I don’t have a view yet on what I would likely decide ).
 
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