UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #10

[esther43]

I am going to be partial to the parent's version of events because they only experienced the medical collapse of one, and sometimes two, babies in their experience. LL experienced dozens and dozens and admits she is vague about many of the details because of that.

For the parents, every detail is seared into their memory banks, IMO.

Agree with this. The chances of parents having 'false memories' at such a significant time would not be on par with others accounts that by comparison may be a fleeting memory.

 

[Dcflag]

It was the QEH in woolwich so a bit of a dive, not a massive hospital. But a rough place next to a military base so it’s probably a key reason for the guard.

Completely forgot to add the quoted post!

 

[Parker Knoll]

As a new mum my whole day revolved around feeding ( had my baby at home so no hospital for me ) I knew exactly how much milk had been drunk, when and when the next was due. The mum will not be wrong, it’s ingrained.

 

[katydid23]

The prosecution is not saying that the other deaths were not due to foul play. They could be suspicious but not enough evidence to bring a prosecution. We just don't know. I seem to remember that Dewi Evans was originally asked to look at 32 cases of unexpected/unexplained


deaths/collapses?

To me, it stands to reason, that at least a few of the other cases they reviewed, were very suspicious. I doubt they could find solid enough evidence in every case they thought may have been attributed to the defendant. It doesn't always happen that there are others seeing something important, and/or other clues hastily left behind. JMO

But the numbers of deaths were still much higher than usual, so it seems possible that some were not charged, but could have been attributed to the alleged defendant. I'd be curious to see who the OTHER families are that she looked up on FB when she looked up the victimised families.

 

[sapphireminds]

Human memory is fallible in general, just as a point of order. It can be heavily influenced by emotions and it is absolutely possible to think things hard enough that it would be indistinguishable from fact. I'm not saying this mother misremembered, but any time anyone has to go back and remember, it will be less accurate than if it was recorded at the time.

NG tubes can cause pressure ulcers which could bleed, they also irritate the lining of the stomach, which can cause bleeding in the stomach, usually microscopic, but possible. And in very rare cases, it can even perforate a stomach.

Things that were recorded at the time they happened are the most likely to be accurate, if not falsified, as well as of course the objective data.

Sometimes what is said is not what is heard as well, IYKWIM. I've seen lots of examples of people saying one thing and other people hearing something totally different. Our brains are crazy things.

 

[sapphireminds]

To me, it stands to reason, that at least a few of the other cases they reviewed, were very suspicious. I doubt they could find solid enough evidence in every case they thought may have been attributed to the defendant. It doesn't always happen that there are others seeing something important, and/or other clues hastily left behind. JMO

But the numbers of deaths were still much higher than usual, so it seems possible that some were not charged, but could have been attributed to the alleged defendant. I'd be curious to see who the OTHER families are that she looked up on FB when she looked up the victimised families.

Just as a hypothetical - if the other cases were clearly nothing to do with her, how would that influence your perspective?

I believe the prosecution and defense agreed that LL looked up a lot of families, not at all limited to the families in the complaints.

 

[katydid23]

Just as a hypothetical - if the other cases were clearly nothing to do with her, how would that influence your perspective?

I believe the prosecution and defense agreed that LL looked up a lot of families, not at all limited to the families in the complaints.

If all of the other cases clearly had nothing to do with her---she was not on the floor at the time, etc, then I'd have to look at what the other potential causes of those deaths could be.

I do remember that they agreed she looked up other families , besides ones she was charged with harming. But I am curious if the other families had babies who died or were injured.

 

[Tortoise]

I don't believe the defence would be allowed to bring into evidence other deaths or collapses where the medical circumstances were not materially similar to those the accused is charged with. Say the babies had not died/collapsed suddenly and unexpectedly, or against clinical expectation.

Where it would be relevant to the defence would be if the circumstances were similar enough to draw comparisons with the cases charged, and the accused was on holiday or something. For instance other cases of babies receiving unprescribed insulin.

The defence didn't speak of the deaths or collapses of any other babies on the unit in their opening speech, so I'm presuming there weren't any comparable cases. They would have had all the case files passed to the medical experts. Mr Myers KC is apparently top notch.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

I don't believe the defence would be allowed to bring into evidence other deaths or collapses where the medical circumstances were not materially similar to those the accused is charged with. Say the babies had not died/collapsed suddenly and unexpectedly, or against clinical expectation.

Where it would be relevant to the defence would be if the circumstances were similar enough to draw comparisons with the cases charged, and the accused was on holiday or something. For instance other cases of babies receiving unprescribed insulin.

The defence didn't speak of the deaths or collapses of any other babies on the unit in their opening speech, so I'm presuming there weren't any comparable cases. They would have had all the case files passed to the medical experts. Mr Myers KC is apparently top notch.

JMO

I am really curious to see what the defense does when they get to speak up.

 

[katydid23]

Are they not sitting at court again today?

 

[Tortoise]

Are they not sitting at court again today?

Perhaps delayed start?

It's not showing as having started yet on Law Pages

 

[Tortoise]

perhaps prison transport or security guards on strike?

It is Walkout Wednesday after all...

Who will be participating in walkout Wednesday?

 

[JosieJo]

"At the Nurse Lucy Letby murder trial. The court's hearing about attempts to resuscitate baby I, who was pale & floppy. Nurses were giving her breathing support & chest compressions. Prosecution allege Lucy Letby murdered the baby on the fourth attempt in Chester's neonatal unit".

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[Tortoise]

Ah it's just showed up on Law Pages

Manchester Crown Court​	7​	T20217088​	Lucy Letby​
Details: Trial (Part Heard) - 10:30

https://www.thelawpages.com/court-hearings-lists/Manchester-Crown-Court.php

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

I don't believe the defence would be allowed to bring into evidence other deaths or collapses where the medical circumstances were not materially similar to those the accused is charged with. Say the babies had not died/collapsed suddenly and unexpectedly, or against clinical expectation.

Where it would be relevant to the defence would be if the circumstances were similar enough to draw comparisons with the cases charged, and the accused was on holiday or something. For instance other cases of babies receiving unprescribed insulin.

The defence didn't speak of the deaths or collapses of any other babies on the unit in their opening speech, so I'm presuming there weren't any comparable cases. They would have had all the case files passed to the medical experts. Mr Myers KC is apparently top notch.

JMO

Would the defence get access to the files relating to the cases which aren’t being charged ? I wonder what the confidentiality restrictions are and whether patients have any right to their files remaining confidential where the person to whom the file relates isn’t the alleged victim in a criminal trial?

 

[Tortoise]

Would the defence get access to the files relating to the cases which aren’t being charged ? I wonder what the confidentiality restrictions are and whether patients have any right to their files remaining confidential where the person to whom the file relates isn’t the alleged victim in a criminal trial?

Yes they would have had access to all of Dr Evans reviews and he disclosed to the court that he was initially asked to review 33 cases. The criminal justice system is weighted very much in favour of the defendant receiving a fair trial and there must be disclosure of exculpatory evidence gathered during the investigation.

 

[JosieJo]

In WhatsApp messages read to the court, Ms Letby asked a colleague on the afternoon of 14 October if Child I was staying on the unit.
She added: "I'd like to keep her please."
Her colleague, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, replied: "Yes. Staying for now. OK re keeping."
An hour later the colleague messaged: "I've had to re-allocate. Sorry."
Ms Letby said: "Has something happened?"
The colleague replied: "No. Was just asked to reallocate so no one has her for more than one night at a time. Or one shift. Not just night."
Ms Letby responded: "Yeah that's understandable."

Lucy Letby: Baby had unusual skin mottling, trial hears - BBC News

Nurse Lucy Letby is accused of murdering the premature baby girl after three earlier attempts.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[ColourPurple]

In WhatsApp messages read to the court, Ms Letby asked a colleague on the afternoon of 14 October if Child I was staying on the unit.
She added: "I'd like to keep her please."
Her colleague, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, replied: "Yes. Staying for now. OK re keeping."
An hour later the colleague messaged: "I've had to re-allocate. Sorry."
Ms Letby said: "Has something happened?"
The colleague replied: "No. Was just asked to reallocate so no one has her for more than one night at a time. Or one shift. Not just night."
Ms Letby responded: "Yeah that's understandable."

Lucy Letby: Baby had unusual skin mottling, trial hears - BBC News

Nurse Lucy Letby is accused of murdering the premature baby girl after three earlier attempts.

www.bbc.co.uk

In WhatsApp messages read to the court, Ms Letby asked a colleague on the afternoon of 14 October if Child I was staying on the unit.
She added: "I'd like to keep her please."
Her colleague, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, replied: "Yes. Staying for now. OK re keeping."
An hour later the colleague messaged: "I've had to re-allocate. Sorry."
Ms Letby said: "Has something happened?"
The colleague replied: "No. Was just asked to reallocate so no one has her for more than one night at a time. Or one shift. Not just night."
Ms Letby responded: "Yeah that's understandable."


Interesting that she wanted to be her designated nurse again. And why was it understandable that she couldn't ?

Was it a new rule or always the case that they couldn't have the same baby for more than one shift? or something specific to Baby !? Sounds like LL wasn't surprised by it either way.

 

[sapphireminds]

In WhatsApp messages read to the court, Ms Letby asked a colleague on the afternoon of 14 October if Child I was staying on the unit.
She added: "I'd like to keep her please."
Her colleague, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, replied: "Yes. Staying for now. OK re keeping."
An hour later the colleague messaged: "I've had to re-allocate. Sorry."
Ms Letby said: "Has something happened?"
The colleague replied: "No. Was just asked to reallocate so no one has her for more than one night at a time. Or one shift. Not just night."
Ms Letby responded: "Yeah that's understandable."


Interesting that she wanted to be her designated nurse again. And why was it understandable that she couldn't ?

Was it a new rule or always the case that they couldn't have the same baby for more than one shift? or something specific to Baby !? Sounds like LL wasn't surprised by it either way.

The lack of surprise is odd - was mom upset visibly on the unit or something? What was being said around that time that it wasn't surprising?

 

[esther43]

In WhatsApp messages read to the court, Ms Letby asked a colleague on the afternoon of 14 October if Child I was staying on the unit.
She added: "I'd like to keep her please."
Her colleague, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, replied: "Yes. Staying for now. OK re keeping."
An hour later the colleague messaged: "I've had to re-allocate. Sorry."
Ms Letby said: "Has something happened?"
The colleague replied: "No. Was just asked to reallocate so no one has her for more than one night at a time. Or one shift. Not just night."
Ms Letby responded: "Yeah that's understandable."


Interesting that she wanted to be her designated nurse again. And why was it understandable that she couldn't ?

Was it a new rule or always the case that they couldn't have the same baby for more than one shift? or something specific to Baby !? Sounds like LL wasn't surprised by it either way.

It would be an unusual approach IMO to deliberately implement inconsistent care.