UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #12

[ColourPurple]

.

It’s the pigg-o-stat, i mentioned it earlier. Now I can’t unsee Augustus Gloop

Haha, you did mention it and I had no idea it was called that so didn't know what you were on about lol . SHe was a little chubster at the time too so was very like Augustus

 

[LorriB]

Just wanted to also say, I wonder what's going on as nurse Williams says Dr J asks her what happened to the tube after the first slip, when he claims he wouldn't have asked her that as she wasn't in the room.

Someone isn't recalling accurately as they both can't be right.

 

[Becci]

Different opinions if there r any lol
Not from uk but other parts of the world who speak english.

 

[Becci]

Different opinions if there r any lol
Not from uk but other parts of the world who speak english.

expand...

Indeed. I have long thought there are good reasons for having specifically qualified juries for cases involving highy complicated and technical matters such as medical or fraud cases. At the very least to have a few experts on said juries.
Marantz my post i thought was linked to what u say above this sorry lol

 

[ColourPurple]

..

Oh I'm absolutely sure he did and I think we need to take his word on this and stop doubting and side-eyeing him, and not just because he was under oath. As you say, he's named people. That's good enough for me.

Where he may have been a little economical with the actualité is in his claim that physical documentation exists, implied by his 'should have been documented throughout more'.

My conclusion - and JMO of course - is that any/all reporting that was done at the time took the form of person to person discussion and tel calls only, hence why no 'physical' record can be produced as evidence.

Dr Jayaram said it should have been documented throughout more.
He says he discussed the incident, but did not formally document it

He has admitted he didn't formally document it though so he's just basically saying it should have been formally documented more than it was, which it turns out was in fact not at all.

I don't think it's a deliberate attempt to mislead and imply that it definitely was formally documented. IMO it's the type of wording that people rightly or wrongly use when they mean something didn't happen at all and it should have, as well as when it happened but to a lesser degree than it should have.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, February 28

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.northwaleschronicle.co.uk

 

[esther43]

Question for the nurses on here: when he talks about “senior management”, who is he likely referring to? Are we talking the Doctor who would’ve been the head of the neonatal unit? Or does he mean the board of the hospital? Or someone else?

I believe senior management to a consultant would mean the medical director or CEO

 

[Legal]

Slightly different situation but I've recently started working for a public sector body (not NHS) and had safeguarding training and when I raised an issue, I felt like it was completely ignored. I was also told, not in so many words, not to get involved. I did get involved because I'm that kind of person but also I'm not bothered about the job. However, if I had been there for years and it was my career, it might have been a different story. Other colleagues had similar experiences and also got involved but I was the only one who raised a formal complaint via email to the relevant person (nothing was done). In my view, this lack of action is because those at the top level of public sector bodies have a very nice salary and a very nice pension and it's all about protecting themselves.

See also, the Mid Staffs hospital scandal. A quote from the article below states ""Staff who spoke out felt ignored and there is strong evidence that many were deterred from doing so through fear and bullying."

Mid Staffs hospital scandal: the essential guide

Study the issue in depth and learn all you need to know about what happens next with our essential guide

www.theguardian.com

 

[Dotta]

Slightly different situation but I've recently started working for a public sector body (not NHS) and had safeguarding training and when I raised an issue, I felt like it was completely ignored. I was also told, not in so many words, not to get involved. I did get involved because I'm that kind of person but also I'm not bothered about the job. However, if I had been there for years and it was my career, it might have been a different story. Other colleagues had similar experiences and also got involved but I was the only one who raised a formal complaint via email to the relevant person (nothing was done). In my view, this lack of action is because those at the top level of public sector bodies have a very nice salary and a very nice pension and it's all about protecting themselves.

See also, the Mid Staffs hospital scandal. A quote from the article below states ""Staff who spoke out felt ignored and there is strong evidence that many were deterred from doing so through fear and bullying."

Mid Staffs hospital scandal: the essential guide

Study the issue in depth and learn all you need to know about what happens next with our essential guide

www.theguardian.com

But who chooses the top level?
Aren't they elected by staff?
Do they not care for their business?
Can't workers speak freely during staff meetings with management?

JMO

 

[Legal]

But who chooses the top level?
Aren't they elected by staff?
Do they not care for their business?
Can't workers speak freely during staff meetings with management?

JMO

Interesting questions! I'm talking about senior management and in theory they apply for those senior positions and undergo a proper recruitment process. However, who knows how much nepotism goes on. I spoke freely about the issues I had, but I was basically brushed off - they pretended to listen but were just very defensive and made it out that I was in the wrong. Luckily we have a union and people can take issues there. That seems to be the only way. Lots of nurses have been going on strike in the UK recently so clearly they've had enough too.

I've never been in such a senior position, but I would really hope that if I was, I would care about the business and my employees and do my best for them. It's really disappointing so many don't seem to feel the same.

 

[Dotta]

Interesting questions! I'm talking about senior management and in theory they apply for those senior positions and undergo a proper recruitment process. However, who knows how much nepotism goes on. I spoke freely about the issues I had, but I was basically brushed off - they pretended to listen but were just very defensive and made it out that I was in the wrong. Luckily we have a union and people can take issues there. That seems to be the only way. Lots of nurses have been going on strike in the UK recently so clearly they've had enough too.

I've never been in such a senior position, but I would really hope that if I was, I would care about the business and my employees and do my best for them. It's really disappointing so many don't seem to feel the same.

Stay strong my friend!
Never give up
Unions are the best choice to seek help it seems.
Our Teachers' Union has free lawyers but I never had any problems
We talk freely during staff meetings and teachers are feisty ones
No beating around the bush haha

JMO

 

[BabaVanga]

Edited. Hope you are all well I have a lot of catching up to do. Better get reading ….

 

[ColourPurple]

welcome back

 

[LorriB]

I wonder if any of our medically experienced posters can check my understanding of this.

This research suggests "The median (IQR) time from ceasing positive pressure ventilation to desaturation <80% was 35 (24–44) s and to desaturation <60% was 56 (42–68) s."

Time to desaturation in preterm infants undergoing endotracheal intubation

Background Neonatal endotracheal intubation is often associated with physiological instability. The Neonatal Resuscitation Program recommends a time-based limit (30 s) for intubation attempts in the delivery room, but there are limited physiological data to support recommendations in the...

fn.bmj.com

If so, would that mean that for saturation to be at 80% when Dr J came in the room, LL could have responded to the alarm, silenced it, started to see what caused the alarm all in 24-44 seconds (as an estimate based on the research)? That doesn't seem to leave much time to watch for self correction before responding , even if she was right beside the baby when desat started.

All JMO

 

[Becci]

Definitely a chest Xray. She had bronchilitis. I've googled baby tube xray and found it's called a pigg-o-stat that somebody actually mentioned earlier, but I didn't click that they were talking about the same thing, as I had no idea it was called that lol

This is it:

This is the unusual way that babies can be kept still during X-rays

Pictures of babies inside a Pigg-O-Stat which keeps them still during X-rays have amused dozens of Twitter users. The device originally came from the US, but the NHS does not routinely use it any longer.

www.dailymail.co.uk

R bless them lol never seen one of them b4

 

[ColourPurple]

I wonder if any of our medically experienced posters can check my understanding of this.

This research suggests "The median (IQR) time from ceasing positive pressure ventilation to desaturation <80% was 35 (24–44) s and to desaturation <60% was 56 (42–68) s."

Time to desaturation in preterm infants undergoing endotracheal intubation

Background Neonatal endotracheal intubation is often associated with physiological instability. The Neonatal Resuscitation Program recommends a time-based limit (30 s) for intubation attempts in the delivery room, but there are limited physiological data to support recommendations in the...

fn.bmj.com

If so, would that mean that for saturation to be at 80% when Dr J came in the room, LL could have responded to the alarm, silenced it, started to see what caused the alarm all in 24-44 seconds (as an estimate based on the research)? That doesn't seem to leave much time to watch for self correction before responding , even if she was right beside the baby when desat started.

All JMO

I'm not medical but just wanted to point out that LL hasn't said that the alarm went off, and in todays' reports it says she said she she would have raised the alarm if Dr Jayaram had not walked in and if she had seen the saturations dropping or that the tube had slipped. Whch seems to imply that she's saying she hadn't noticed that the sats were dropping at the point that Dr J walked in.

"Consultant Dr Ravi Jayaram told the jury that Letby was doing “nothing” when he walked into nursery room 1.

He said he saw her standing beside Child K’s incubator and then he looked up at the monitor and saw her saturations (blood oxygen levels) were in the 80s and falling.

Monitors were set to alarm when saturations dropped below 90% but they were silent at the cot, he added.

On Wednesday, prosecutor Nick Johnson KC read to jurors a summary of Letby’s police interviews about the incident, in which she denied any wrongdoing.

Letby told detectives at Cheshire Police she only recalled Child K because she was a “tiny baby” and the Countess of Chester did not usually take babies of her gestation and weight.

She said she had no recollection of the tube slipping and agreed that designated nurse Joanne Williams would not have left Child K unless she was stable and her ET (endotracheal tube) was correctly positioned.

Mr Johnson said: “She stated she would have raised the alarm if Dr Jayaram had not walked in and if she had seen the saturations dropping or that the tube had slipped.

“Miss Letby thought it possible that she was waiting to see if (Child K) self-corrected. She explained that nurses don’t always intervene straightaway if levels were not ‘dangerously low’.”

Following further questions from police, she suggested that maybe the tube had not been secured properly, he said. She denied that had been done deliberately."

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2023-03-01/lucy-letby-may-have-been-waiting-for-baby-to-self-correct-trial-told?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1677682509

 

[Marantz4250b]

Just wanted to also say, I wonder what's going on as nurse Williams says Dr J asks her what happened to the tube after the first slip, when he claims he wouldn't have asked her that as she wasn't in the room.

Someone isn't recalling accurately as they both can't be right.

<modsnip>

They are trying to send her to prison for attempted murder on sworn evidence of her being onbserved doing absolutely nothing along with some other facts as you relate above which the only two witnesses present seemingly differ on!

As always, all my own opinion based on the reports in the media.

 

[bbsaz]

Imo, Dr Js evidence has been both underwhelming and convincing, but for different reasons. His version of events arpund Baby L is pretty weak to prove she was trying to kill K. Her behaviour/presence could be suspicious, it could be genuine. But either way, its weak.

However, what I have found compelling from his evidence is all the detail about a number of consultants having concerns over many months, to the point they had their own meeting & at least 2 escalated it. Im not going so far as to say "no smoke without fire", but a group of well educated experienced peoples instincts, collectively feeling concern about 1 individual is compelling IMO

 

[ColourPurple]

They are trying to send her to prison for attempted murder on sworn evidence of her being onbserved doing absolutely nothing along with some other facts as you relate above which the only two witnesses present seemingly differ on!

As always, all my own opinion based on the reports in the media.

Within 3 minutes of Baby K's designated nurse leaving Baby K, LL was found standing next to her while the baby's saturations were in the 80s and dropping, and an alarm that should have gone off once they went below 90 was not sounding.

Baby K's designated nurse has said she was fine when she left her. LL has agreed that the designated nurse would not have left her unless she was stable and the tube was correctly positioned.

Then a few hours later, shortly after an Xray had confirmed the tube was now in the correct postion, Baby K desaturated again while LL was there, and the tube was found to have moved again.

Its up to the jury to decide whether it was all coincidence or bad luck that that the baby's tube moved and her oxygen levels dropped twice when LL was with her, when she had been fine minutes before, and if it was just coincidence that the alarm that should have gone off once the sats were below 90% didn't sound on the first occasion either. Or whether LL was responsible.

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2023-03-01/lucy-letby-may-have-been-waiting-for-baby-to-self-correct-trial-told?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1677682509

 

[Dotta]

Within 3 minutes of Baby K's designated nurse leaving her LL was found next to her while the baby's saturations were in the 80s and dropping and an alarm that should have gone off once they went below 90 was not sounding.

Baby K's designated nurse has said she was fine when she keft her. LL has agreed that the designated nurse would not have left her unless she was stable and the tube was correctly postioned.

Then a few hours later, shortly after an Xray had confirmed the tube was now in the correct postion, Baby K desaturated again while LL was there and the tube was found to have moved again.

Its up to the jury to decide whether it was all coincidence or bad luck that that the baby's tube moved and her oxygen levels dropped twice when LL was with her, when she had been fine minutes before, and if it was just coincidence that the alarm that should have gone off once the sats were below 90% didn't sound on the first occasion either. Or whether LL was responsible.

Besides, what does it mean? :

doing nothing and standing "observing" while saturations dropped while every second counted (possible brain damage).

And also what does it exactly mean:

Waiting for a Baby to "self correct" when the tube was dislodged?

Really??

JMO

 

[Cardgame]

<modsnip>

They are trying to send her to prison for attempted murder on sworn evidence of her being onbserved doing absolutely nothing along with some other facts as you relate above which the only two witnesses present seemingly differ on!

As always, all my own opinion based on the reports in the media.

I don't think they are accusing her of doing nothing. They are accusing her of sabotaging the baby's tube in an attempt to harm.

They are saying :

- when the other nurse left, the baby was FINE. If baby was not fine, other nurse would not have left baby.

- Within minutes of the baby being alone with LL suddenly the baby was not fine, in accordance with a pattern which they had previously observed of inexplicable and unexpected crashes from babies who had previously seemed stable

- LL was in the vicinity of the baby (ie had means and opportunity) AND not helping , ie, she hadn't rushed over in response to an alarm in order to provide assistance , she was standing by the cot 'doing nothing'

- in order for her to explain why she was so near that cot, standing over it, would it not seem reasonable to assume an alarm would have had to sound, to alert her to attend to the cot ?

- the doctor swears he did not hear an alarm

- if no alarm, why is LL standing over baby's cot?

- don't think any of the above are in dispute. But happy to be corrected. It is all v complex!

- my question to the medics here: is the fact that the tube was dislodged by being 2cm further IN unusual?

I assume babies most commonly dislodge tubes by tugging them *out*. How common is it/possible is it for a tiny baby to shove a tube further down its own throat? Is that relevant?