UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #14

[Becci]

Even if guilty, she'd still need to work to pay the bills like everyody else.

That was 10 months before she was moved to admin, and was about whether she was too junior to be looking after the sicker babies in room 1. Your post referred to her hearing gossip after she was moved to admin.

Nowt changed from 10 months prior so why would she think gossiping stopped after that.
My ears would've been burning everyday. Then at the end get moved to admin you'd defo presume there still gossiping even if they actually weren't.
Imo
I'm getting myself in a jumble here lol so i hope i make sense

 

[Becci]

Nowt changed from 10 months prior so why would she think gossiping stopped after that.
My ears would've been burning everyday. Then at the end get moved to admin you'd defo presume there still gossiping even if they actually weren't.
Imo
I'm getting myself in a jumble here lol so i hope i make sense

Maybe she was to junior. Wonder why they never stopped her dealing with the sickest. That sounds a more reasonable approach than changing nights to days even though she did do nights still anyway

 

[Marantz4250b]

I’m not sure it’s a fob off, it could literally just be a way of saying “we have no legal precedent for acting because of no evidence and a nurse being in A hospital is not evidence of anything“.

I get where you're coming from but, as mentioned in the post you responded to, the fact that she was undeniably associated with these issues due to her physical presence, is a perfectly reasonable rationale on which to either change her duties or suspend her whilst you investigate.

It comes down to proportionality; is what you are doing proportionate to the problem you might be experiencing? If patients are suffering serious harm or are dying then taking someone away from them until you can ascertain the full facts seems entirely proportional, IMO.

It's not even about her doing anything illegal - she may have been incompetent or having some sort of personal crisis or medical issue which was adversely affecting her work. In those scenarios it's as much about protecting your employee as it is protecting your patients/customers.

All this talk of needing hard evidence or "proof", in my opinion, is very often an a*** covering exercise used as an excuse for not acting.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Maybe she was to junior. Wonder why they never stopped her dealing with the sickest. That sounds a more reasonable approach than changing nights to days even though she did do nights still anyway

One might think that would actually be a good way to differentiate between sick babies collapsing and completely unexpected events. If she is around and a perfectly healthy baby collapses then that’s a big question mark. Again though we have to assume they could get the replacement staff in, she was a valued indivisual with high tier training.

 

[DianaWW]

But often these babies weren’t her designated babies. So she wasn’t supposed to be looking after them in the first place?

Not sure how you could stop her covering breaks without letting every other member of staff know that she wasn’t allowed near their babies? JMO

 

[Tortoise]

Nowt changed from 10 months prior so why would she think gossiping stopped after that.
My ears would've been burning everyday. Then at the end get moved to admin you'd defo presume there still gossiping even if they actually weren't.
Imo
I'm getting myself in a jumble here lol so i hope i make sense

We haven't seen evidence that the situation as regards other nurse's concerns from 10 months prior continued however.

She texted the doctor saying that due to her skill-sets she tends to work in room 1 and it works out well. She also said that another doctor, Huw, liked it when she was in room 1, and she talks about a job opening she thinks she is lined up for, so as far as I can see the situation had changed in those 10 months.

I have no problem with anyone speculating that there might have been gossip, it's just it isn't a fact heard in evidence, yet, that she started to pick up on gossip when she was moved to admin.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

One might think that would actually be a good way to differentiate between sick babies collapsing and completely unexpected events. If she is around and a perfectly healthy baby collapses then that’s a big question mark. Again though we have to assume they could get the replacement staff in, she was a valued indivisual with high tier training.

That is the prosecution's argument, though. That's why there's a trial.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I think you would be expecting gossip if you had done something wrong and had your back up about being caught. If you are literally carrying on without a worry about your practice you turn up do your job and don’t worry.

I don’t think there necessarily would be gossip in this situation. I would guess it would be the kind of thing you would only talk about in the most hushed of voices anyway. The feeling that would be part and parcel of the association you are suggesting to anyone else would more likely make you very very quiet about it. I’m convinced the nurses didn’t associate her with the collapses and deaths at least not in a negative way. Any talk of death is normally very reserved and talk of accusing someone of murder even done privately would still be done with extreme caution. I think we have heard how this happened in the case. It took this long for the docs to actually draw a line and say ”do something“.

 

[Tortoise]

Ignorant people often say "there's no evidence" as a means of rudely dismissing another person. It doesn't mean there is literally no evidence, it means the nurse exec was not interested and was going to disregard any evidence they did have.

Guilty or not, Lucy's presence is definitely evidence of her simply being associated with the unexpected collapses and deaths. This could turn out to be a terrible coincidence, but in itself it's literally rock solid evidence of this association. The nurse exec was not going to listen so instead threw it back in the doctor's face by demanding an impossible standard of proof, any other evidence as far as she's concerned was "no evidence".

I wouldn't have thought LL's written notes stating "they have no evidence" is connected with the executive senior nurse telling Dr Brearey over the phone that he had no evidence to support a decision not to allow LL back on the unit the next day. JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

That is the prosecution's argument, though. That's why there's a trial.

Are any of these babies “perfectly healthy”? Are they dependent in any way on the medical care to survive? Even if all they need is ventilation I would still consider them at risk. Anything other than the expected degree of independence with babies at that age makes me think none of them are that healthy.

I was thinking the lowest level of at risk babies so level ones in room four rather than the ones In icu or itu.

 

[Jazmania]

Are any of these babies “perfectly healthy”? Are they dependent in any way on the medical care to survive? Even if all they need is ventilation I would still consider them at risk. Anything other than the expected degree of independence with babies at that age makes me think none of them are that healthy.

I was thinking the lowest level of at risk babies so level ones in room four rather than the ones In icu or itu.

All the babies are in a neonatal unit, so they obvious all have a reason for being there. However many of the babies in this trial had only minor clinical issues, which were being effectively managed.

I think it was baby O that the consultant head of the unit said was very healthy, was on track for being discharged soon, and needed essentially bare minimum care. Then suddenly out of nowhere he collapses and dies.

 

[Tortoise]

looks like the reporter's woken up


Mel Barham

@MelBarhamITV
·
5m

Jury shown a Facebook message from Lucy Letby to a dr colleague where she says “I might see if she (a student nurse) can work with someone else as don’t feel I’m in frame of mind to support her properly and paperwork to finish off”

Mel Barham

@MelBarhamITV
·
3m

Court hears Lucy Letby was the designated nurse for baby P, and was only looking after him that shift in nursery 2

Mel Barham

@MelBarhamITV
·
1m

Court heard baby P suffered a number of collapses through the day shift on 24th June 2016 needing resuscitation

 

[Tortoise]

Mel Barham

@MelBarhamITV
·
4m

Court has finished for the day. They are not sitting tomorrow so jury will be back on Monday. Letby denies all the charges against her

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Are any of these babies “perfectly healthy”? Are they dependent in any way on the medical care to survive? Even if all they need is ventilation I would still consider them at risk. Anything other than the expected degree of independence with babies at that age makes me think none of them are that healthy.

I was thinking the lowest level of at risk babies so level ones in room four rather than the ones In icu or itu.

Well, most of them were premature, but many not so premature that they would be at increased risk of death compared to a term baby. (Baby K is the exception here.) A perfectly healthy preterm baby is still going to need extra help staying warm, and feeding. Light respiratory support like a nasal cannula can also be expected. That *is* the expected degree of independence for a baby of that gestational age. It's not like adult ICU patients. Adult ICU patients are *sick.* Many babies in the NICU are not sick, they just need to grow a bit. The expected outcome is not death, not even close. It's "get bigger and go home."

 

[marynnu]

Maybe she was to junior. Wonder why they never stopped her dealing with the sickest. That sounds a more reasonable approach than changing nights to days even though she did do nights still anyway

She wasn't too junior. She'd been there 4 years or so, done the neonatal specialist course & obtained a Band 6 post. If you can't look after the poorliest babies you shouldn't be on Band 6.

 

[Tortoise]

Cameras are only good for trawling back to see what happened after an event. Like shoplifting. 'Where there is a will there is a way' as the saying goes, a nurse hunched over the patient obscuring camera view will still be possible, as will an unknown substance being connected to a line. Far more relevant, IMO, is the training for medical staff in recognition of air embolus during an emergency and being able to treat it. Hopefully this might become a fantastic resource and opportunity for furthering knowledge. JMO

 

[Imogenia]

Cameras are only good for trawling back to see what happened after an event. Like shoplifting. 'Where there is a will there is a way' as the saying goes, a nurse hunched over the patient obscuring camera view will still be possible, as will an unknown substance being connected to a line. Far more relevant, IMO, is the training for medical staff in recognition of air embolus during an emergency and being able to treat it. Hopefully this might become a fantastic resource and opportunity for furthering knowledge. JMO

I agree, cameras would not be enough on their own.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Cameras are only good for trawling back to see what happened after an event. Like shoplifting. 'Where there is a will there is a way' as the saying goes, a nurse hunched over the patient obscuring camera view will still be possible, as will an unknown substance being connected to a line. Far more relevant, IMO, is the training for medical staff in recognition of air embolus during an emergency and being able to treat it. Hopefully this might become a fantastic resource and opportunity for furthering knowledge. JMO

Unfortunately, as far as I know, the treatment is only exactly what they did at Chester. CPR/NRP/ACLS until it either gets better and the patient revives, or it doesn't get better, and the patient is still dead, and they end the resuscitation. Happy to be corrected on this by anyone with more direct experience. JMO.

 

[Tortoise]

Unfortunately, as far as I know, the treatment is only exactly what they did at Chester. CPR/NRP/ACLS until it either gets better and the patient revives, or it doesn't get better, and the patient is still dead, and they end the resuscitation. Happy to be corrected on this by anyone with more direct experience. JMO.

I only remember that Dr Bohin said there was a treatment for it. I'll have to trawl back to find it.

 

[Tortoise]

"Mr Myers says Child D recovered twice, which, in principle, is inconsistent with an air embolus.
Dr Bohin disagrees, saying it depends on the speed and volume of the air administered.
She said there is a treatment for air embolus."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, November 11

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk