UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #16

[Marantz4250b]

Even a beginner's course in forensic psychology reveals how faulty human memory of events can be. The longer the time elapsed since the event, the less reliable the memory evidence is.

This is very true. True story; I have long had this memory of being a very young child sitting with my father at silly o'clock in the morning watching a live broadcast of one of the lunar landings. It is memorable to me because he brought me down from bed to watch it. I recall being told off for swearing during it - commenting on the size of one of the moon boulders, I believe. It's a very definite memory to me.

The problem, however, is that at the time of the last lunar manned mission, December 1972, I was one year and a few days old so the chances of a) being able to recall it at all and, b) being told off for swearing are pretty remote. I'm not even sure there was a live broadcast of it but it seems unlikely there was. If I'd been asked about that memory without actually knowing the date of Apollo 17 I'd swear that it was a true recollection.

So, I have no idea where this "memory" actually came from. Probably something a dreamt or something.

 

[Dotta]

This is very true. True story; I have long had this memory of being a very young child sitting with my father at silly o'clock in the morning watching a live broadcast of one of the lunar landings. It is memorable to me because he brought me down from bed to watch it. I recall being told off for swearing during it - commenting on the size of one of the moon boulders, I believe. It's a very definite memory to me.

The problem, however, is that at the time of the last lunar manned mission, December 1972, I was one year and a few days old so the chances of a) being able to recall it at all and, b) being told off for swearing are pretty remote. I'm not even sure there was a live broadcast of it but it seems unlikely there was. If I'd been asked about that memory without actually knowing the date of Apollo 17 I'd swear that it was a true recollection.

So, I have no idea where this "memory" actually came from. Probably something a dreamt or something.

In 1975 was this famous "space handshake" between USA and USSR - it was on anniversary of the 1st Moon landing.
But was it televised live?
IDK
One of my students, crazy about space exploration prepared a PowerPoint presentation about it for our class

You could have watched it + documentary of Moon landing.

JMO

 

[marynnu]

im Wondering what people have made of the med notes specifically, the ones found at her house. I’m taking a guess but I don’t think the large amount of them found were actually organised in any way. We know some were found in a bag under the bed but no other documents have been found in the same place. I’m confident this would have been mentioned in court. I’m curious about the large amount of them found. is this something of significance? I’m kind of against that idea as she had more than enough time to dispose of any incriminating evidence Had she known about it.The prosecution have attached significance to something that doesn’t quite work that well and just looking at her own seeming unawareness after baby q it seems to run with it. She doesn’t perceive herself as someone with something to hide and so presumably if she even knows about those med records wouldn’t hide them. It seems to me that it’s more likely that she is indeed someone who holds onto bits of paper. I’m confident this works theoretically, the prosecution say they are of mental significance to ll yet if they were they wouldn’t have been found. If all the notes found at her home are all over the place and it would seem more likely for that to be true, then there is nothing that indicates significance to ll.

some points about the notes

1. not organised suggesting they were indeed shoved into a draw
2. many found so it’s kind of normal albeit against the rules for ll to keep notes
3. could have been easily disposed of yet were not suggesting they were not considered significant to her
4. ll had herself gone on an info finding mission about the previous years events yet still apparently did not recall keeping them, otherwise they would have been disposed of.
5. the only med notes found were of babies who lived.

this post is related purely to this aspect of the evidence presented.

im curious to know exactly how it was that the prosecution knew that the blood gas record found actually belonged to one of the babies in the charges? Same with the paper towel. Neither of which in my mind necessarily have names or details of the patient on them?

I find it interesting that she would keep them whether guilty or innocent. I feel it would have worried me that at some point they'd be found, as it doesn't look good.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I find it interesting that she would keep them whether guilty or innocent. I feel it would have worried me that at some point they'd be found, as it doesn't look good.

It’s really strange to me, like really strange. I can only think that the large amount found suggest she is indeed highly attached to her work and job. That’s the only reason I can see why anyone would keep them at all regardless of innocence or not. This aspect isn’t strange to me, I can totally see someone doing it innocously. I would also be surprised if that was considered a gross mistake by managers. the following makes it highly strange.

The following is aside from the medical evidence.

To me it’s one aspect along with some others that suggests she truly wasn’t thinking it would go as far as police involvement. Two years of opportunity to get rid of but nope, they are there. It’s like the rest of her behaviour and coms and the seeming obliviousness to situation. If she had kept them as “trophies” they would certainly be seen as significant by her, certainly significant enough to be remembered and disposed of. Certainly significant enough to be organised in some way. One of the things that suggests to me that they aren’t held as significant is the fact that lots of them were found. Normal for her albeit against the rules. If it was only those med records they found I couldn’t say I thought they weren’t significant.

things That suggest insignificance about the notes to ll

1. notes not organised
2. notes not disposed of even with ample opportunity and reason
3. normalcy of keeping such notes for ll disregarding the rules
4. Apparent lack of fear about them being found

i don’t think we have heard about the notes as of yet. Im going to go out on a limb here, I suggest that if ll does indeed take the stand she will explain the notes including the post it notes. I really think it would be in her interests to do so. If not I will retract the above.

all in all I think the jury will consider these two highly opposed elements of the evidence. Her behaviour isn’t like that of someone who knows she has something to fear Weighed against the medical evidence. I really think it will come down to that.

jmo

 

[squish]

Even a beginner's course in forensic psychology reveals how faulty human memory of events can be. The longer the time elapsed since the event, the less reliable the memory evidence is.

How is that relevant to anything I said?

 

[marynnu]

Just out of interest, does anyone have enough knowledge to say when other staff might have been interviewed by the police? Would it have been from the start of the investigation? Thanks.

 

[notsure]

How is that relevant to anything I said?

You were referring to memory of timelines, etc., weren't you? I see you had several of your posts deleted, which makes it difficult to comment on the exact sequence of our interchange.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Just out of interest, does anyone have enough knowledge to say when other staff might have been interviewed by the police? Would it have been from the start of the investigation? Thanks.

would have been the second investigation after her first arrest, the first one they were probably just asked if they had ever seen anything or had good reason to suspect her. Was only after the sec arrest they suspected foul play. As a guess.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

I find it interesting that she would keep them whether guilty or innocent. I feel it would have worried me that at some point they'd be found, as it doesn't look good.

I’m wondering whether once she was put on admin duties, and knew there was an investigation happening (maybe just in relation to medical negligence , not murder at that time) and that she was obviously in the frame because she hadn’t been allowed to return to medical duties, she started to print documents off at work in relation to various babies who she knew were the subject of the investigation in order to try to prove that she hasn’t done anything wrong, or at least if guilty to give the impression that she was trying to prove her innocence.

So getting the documents together to be able to challenge the hospital’s refusal to put her back on medical duties by showing she hadn’t done anything wrong. Or, if guilty, to see whether the paper trail contained any incriminating evidence against her.

Whether guilty or not, she most likely would have needed to look back at the paperwork in order to refresh her memory of the sequence of events and other details of the case.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I’m wondering whether once she was put on admin duties, and knew there was an investigation happening (maybe just in relation to medical negligence , not murder at that time) and that she was obviously in the frame because she hadn’t been allowed to return to medical duties, she started to print documents off at work in relation to various babies who she knew were the subject of the investigation in order to try to prove that she hasn’t done anything wrong, or at least if guilty to give the impression that she was trying to prove her innocence.

So getting the documents together to be able to challenge the hospital’s refusal to put her back on medical duties by showing she hadn’t done anything wrong. Or, if guilty, to see whether the paper trail contained any incriminating evidence against her.

Whether guilty or not, she most likely would have needed to look back at the paperwork in order to refresh her memory of the sequence of events and other details of the case.

That’s an idea. If she knew or thought that some patients had been given sub clinical treatment find it as a way of pushing away potential blame, guilty or not.

 

[marynnu]

I’m wondering whether once she was put on admin duties, and knew there was an investigation happening (maybe just in relation to medical negligence , not murder at that time) and that she was obviously in the frame because she hadn’t been allowed to return to medical duties, she started to print documents off at work in relation to various babies who she knew were the subject of the investigation in order to try to prove that she hasn’t done anything wrong, or at least if guilty to give the impression that she was trying to prove her innocence.

So getting the documents together to be able to challenge the hospital’s refusal to put her back on medical duties by showing she hadn’t done anything wrong. Or, if guilty, to see whether the paper trail contained any incriminating evidence against her.

Whether guilty or not, she most likely would have needed to look back at the paperwork in order to refresh her memory of the sequence of events and other details of the case.

Possibly. I have no idea if she'd be able to access them, that's one thing. And as it's probably not allowed to take such documents home, I think I'd have stashed them somewhere else!

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

Possibly. I have no idea if she'd be able to access them, that's one thing. And as it's probably not allowed to take such documents home, I think I'd have stashed them somewhere else!

Oh I agree, she wouldn’t have been allowed to take them home.

But if her first actual arrest caught her by surprise (in that she just thought before that the allegations against her were that she was crap at her job), then there would be no reason to think things weren’t safe in your own home.

But also, seeing as the Milky Bar Kid was feeding LL information quite freely, it may be that he (or others) obtained the docs for LL to help her get back to medical duties (believing that she was being unfairly treated and blamed for shortcomings in care and not realising that things had progressed into a murder investigation).

 

[marynnu]

Oh I agree, she wouldn’t have been allowed to take them home.

But if her first actual arrest caught her by surprise (in that she just thought before that the allegations against her were that she was crap at her job), then there would be no reason to think things weren’t safe in your own home.

But also, seeing as the Milky Bar Kid was feeding LL information quite freely, it may be that he (or others) obtained the docs for LL to help her get back to medical duties (believing that she was being unfairly treated and blamed for shortcomings in care and not realising that things had progressed into a murder investigation).

Good points. And she did say she was looking at what happened in the last year, or something along those lines, didn't she? I hope this all gets mentioned when the trial restarts.

 

[Anxala]

Possibly. I have no idea if she'd be able to access them, that's one thing. And as it's probably not allowed to take such documents home, I think I'd have stashed them somewhere else!

^ That's a good point. I wonder, (considering the 'cloud' she was under) once she was moved to Admin, if she was given a new login, one that restricted her from accessing the patient data she would previously have had access to?

 

[marynnu]

^ That's a good point. I wonder, (considering the 'cloud' she was under) once she was moved to Admin, if she was given a new login, one that restricted her from accessing the patient data she would previously have had access to?

You'd think so, wouldn't you? I have no idea how all that works, as when I retired in 2016 our NNU was still using paper records!

 

[Anxala]

You'd think so, wouldn't you? I have no idea how all that works, as when I retired in 2016 our NNU was still using paper records!

I was just reminded of a very normal work situation where someone moved from a HR position to another post within an org I worked for and their network access was auto changed to the access their new role required.

 

[marynnu]

I was just reminded of a very normal work situation where someone moved from a HR position to another post within an org I worked for and their network access was auto changed to the access their new role required.

I was just reminded of a very normal work situation where someone moved from a HR position to another post within an org I worked for and their network access was auto changed to the access their new role required.

It might be different in a healthcare setting though. There tend to be more restrictions related to patient safety and confidentiality. I remember that not everyone could enter the unit where I worked with their swipe card, for example.

 

[Anxala]

It might be different in a healthcare setting though. There tend to be more restrictions related to patient safety and confidentiality. I remember that not everyone could enter the unit where I worked with their swipe card, for example.

Let's hope when that lazy lot (10 and a half days! For easter-egg eating!!) are back to work on the 19th that we finally get to the nuts and bolts and conclusion of the prosecution's case.

I can't wait for the defence to take the stand.

 

[esther43]

Good points. And she did say she was looking at what happened in the last year, or something along those lines, didn't she? I hope this all gets mentioned when the trial restarts.

Possibly. I have no idea if she'd be able to access them, that's one thing. And as it's probably not allowed to take such documents home, I think I'd have stashed them somewhere else!

Can I ask a question about handover sheets please? So when a nurse receives a hand over sheet from another nurse, where are they normally disposed of in the hospital? And typically at what point would a nurse dispose of them? For example, would you receive the doc off the coleague, keep it on your person for the whole shift then put it in the shredder before going home? Do nurses personally shred them or is this the responsibility of the ward admin?

 

[marynnu]

Can I ask a question about handover sheets please? So when a nurse receives a hand over sheet from another nurse, where are they normally disposed of in the hospital? And typically at what point would a nurse dispose of them? For example, would you receive the doc off the coleague, keep it on your person for the whole shift then put it in the shredder before going home? Do nurses personally shred them or is this the responsibility of the ward admin?

Esther, I'm really sorry, but I've never seen a handover sheet - we didn't use them. From what people say they shouldn't leave the hospital, but that's all I know.