UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #20

[katydid23]

I just can't imagine any killer saying "I did this on purpose." It sounds ridiculous (to me, a native English speaker). It has to mean "They said I did this on purpose." JMO

Why? I did this on purpose is a standard, often used sentence. Why does it sound ridiculous to you?

If she was trying to say that 'other people' were saying this, not her, why not just say that?

Who writes down on a piece of people, several shocking confessions, if they know they are under suspicion already?

I would write that 'people say I killed them but I didn't. ' I cannot imagine writing ' I AM EVIL. I DID THIS' OR I killed them on purpose...I don't deserve to live.... if I was totally innocent of the crimes.

 

[katydid23]

Yis

Really? It should be fine if someone poisons a newborn's feeding bag with insulin if it isn't enough to kill them?

 

[katydid23]

Well, just hypothesising... If I were a killer, I think that saying I killed someone would be sufficient. "On purpose" is a bit superfluous, imo.

Why would it be sufficient? There is a big difference between killing someone and killing them 'on purpose. '

The local garbage truck dumped a large commercial bin into the bed of the truck and found out later that a man had been sleeping in the bin. He suffocated before he was discovered.

He 'killed' that poor man. But not on purpose.

Just the fact that LL wrote down the words 'on purpose' makes me believe it was not accidental in her mind.

 

[katydid23]

And an equally strong possibility that she may not have, since I'd question why someone knowingly guilty would be questioning themselves in this way.

Maybe because it casts doubt and confusion?

How would someone 'not know' if they killed seven babies and almost killed ten more? Anyone who says they don't know if they killed or collapsed 17 babies , 22 different times, has big problems.

Maybe. But I'm happy to wait and see how the prosecution ties all this up into one big guilty bow.

Agreed.

 

[katydid23]

I agree that note isnt Proof of innocence But it is certainly nothing even approaching proof of guilt, the only sentence in it that could be construed that way is the fact that there was no police investigation at that time.

I think it does approach indications of guilt. allegedly....I cannot see why an innocent person would allegedly write those 'confessions' and keep them around. She was asking for help in some of the notes and I think these words were a cry for help, perhaps.

If I was under suspicion fort killing babies, I would never write " I killed them on purpose, or I am Evil, I did this' That is just stupid and reckless. JMO

 

[katydid23]

It is ridiculous when you are clarifying it to yourself.

Why? Maybe that is exactly what she was doing----clarifying to herself, admitting to herself, the cold hard truth of the situation.

 

[katydid23]

I’m going to deadhead my daffodils so I can make a million pounds. Linguistically Makes sense, rationally is insane. strangely accurate example of word salad.

it is superfluous considering the answer only makes sense in response to a question of “did you kill these babies”?.

Her notes were not insane word salad. To me, they seemed very accurate and heartfelt.

 

[katydid23]

does it make sense for her to write “I haven’t done anything wrong”? Then write that as well. Not to me, too many conflicting statements at the same time suggests to me inner turmoil and conflicted thinking ie being unsure. There’s nothing in any of her notes, personal coms, reactions, sequences of events that to me suggest she knows she did it.

EVERYONE, innocent or guilty, would be likely to write things like " I didn't do anything wrong." I don't automatically take a suspect at their word if they write they are innocent. EVERYONE says that.

But how many suspects leave notes behind admitting they killed the victims on purpose and saying they are evil and they did this?

Probably ALL guilty suspects leave notes behind saying they are innocent.

But how many innocent suspects leave notes behind saying they are guilty?

 

[katydid23]

Th

imo there is only one way that sentence would be used and it’s in a genuine admission of guilt to an external audience Where there is doubt either in the minds of the audience or the individual saying it has created doubt in others minds deliberately. If there Is no external audience imagined or otherwise then the sentence is directed at oneself And thus no need to affirm ones own deliberate action. Blaming oneself for something that one really does know one didn’t do is double think. It’s called being in two minds about something, otherwise known as ”did I” or “didn’t I“ and is a frequent aspect of ones lived experience if they live in a world that’s accusing them of something. Akin to gaslighting and the endless inner conflict that comes with it.

Maybe there was an external audience. Maybe it was a suicide note as she had been saying she felt suicidal at the time.

 

[katydid23]

That’s the other thing. All that turmoil and chaos, you really think she’s in the right place to be writing what is alleged to be a confession? No I wouldn’t. I never take emotion laden projection as serious talk, said it before its warm language in a proper confession it’s always cold Maybe interspersed with warmer words. Imo.

You are asserting that 'proper confessions' are always this or that? Is that an expert opinion with a link to research on that statement?

Some of the statements in her notes sound very much like confessions to me.

I find it interesting that you say you don't take emotional laden talk seriously. Just when would someone leave a confession or a suicide note if they were not feeling extra emotional ?

Some of our biggest and deepest truths are shared when we feel very emotional. JMO

 

[katydid23]

I agree. This is not how people talk, at least not adults. It's like something you'd hear from a seven year-old.

Have you seen her calender book with the pink doggie cartoon on the front. Or the sparkles artwork on the walls?

 

[katydid23]

Why would a killer also say they didn't do it?

What? Has there ever been a killer who didn't at some point deny they did it?

 

[katydid23]

But the statements of innocence are more numerous than the statement as to guilt. You can't just pick the ones which fit what you want to think.

Yes, you can, because of probabilities and expectations.

How many murder suspects say they are innocent?

I'd say 90% or more would say that. High probablity to hear a murder suspect, even a guilty one saying they are innocent.


How many innocent murder suspects say they are guilty, or write notes saying they are guilty? Very very few, IMO

 

[katydid23]

I’ll be interested to hear why she called dr brearey and dr Ravi the b word. The way her testimony went would suggest imo that there was something specific said that she had heard. I’m not sure if we will hear that though would seem the questioning on the notes is over.

I think she would have heard their request that she no longer be on the floor. I am pretty sure her doctor friend would have been told about that at some point. I bet he told her. JMO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Maybe there was an external audience. Maybe it was a suicide note as she had been saying she felt suicidal at the time.

I'm so ambivalent about the notes but they certainly do work in terms of sitting and weighing up the issues that meant she was going to take her own life, maybe in a maudlin state after a few drinks or suchlike.

Writing down all the issues that mean her life is not viable? I killed them on purpose, I am evil, I will never get married etc...

In those circumstances, it would be remarkable she *didn't* try to take her own life - or maybe she did and we don't know about it? But as a nurse she would know how to go about it pretty effectively.

JMO MOO

 

[Becci]

So basically it's dr j who becomes "suspicious"
Very early on.
Painting her in a bad light to others but not direct?
As far as she was aware she was doing thing's right & if she wasn't then how would she know if nobody is addressing the situation?
She had a lot of responsibility & witnessed a lot of trauma.
In the end she's taken off & left pretty much isolated & blamed for everything.
With no answers it would be hard not to self blame.
Snippet from google
Is blaming yourself a trauma response?


Blaming one's self is a common response to having a traumatic experience. This is especially true even when the traumatic event occurs through no fault of our own -we didn't ask for it, we didn't want it and we certainly weren't okay with it happening.16 Dec 2022

If innocent obviously

A same type thing as when the doctor was crying because she didn't know if she'd caused damage to a baby whist giving chest compressions.
Only benefit there was that nobody was blaming her.

 

[marynnu]

Why would a killer also say they didn't do it?

Do you mean when she said 'I haven't done anything wrong'?

 

[katydid23]

So basically it's dr j who becomes "suspicious"
Very early on.
Painting her in a bad light to others but not direct?
As far as she was aware she was doing thing's right & if she wasn't then how would she know if nobody is addressing the situation?
She had a lot of responsibility & witnessed a lot of trauma.
In the end she's taken off & left pretty much isolated & blamed for everything.
With no answers it would be hard not to self blame.
Snippet from google
Is blaming yourself a trauma response?


Blaming one's self is a common response to having a traumatic experience. This is especially true even when the traumatic event occurs through no fault of our own -we didn't ask for it, we didn't want it and we certainly weren't okay with it happening.16 Dec 2022

If innocent obviously

A same type thing as when the doctor was crying because she didn't know if she'd caused damage to a baby whist giving chest compressions.
Only benefit there was that nobody was blaming her.

But the difference between the doctor who was crying about her fears she may have hurt the child during chest compressions and Nurse Letby is that Nurse Letby was allegedly connected closely to 22 incidents of unexplained collapses. Not just one.

After this one incident the doctor did some quick reflection and took a step back, asking colleagues if she might have made a serious error.

Nurse Letby had babies collapse and die, sometimes 2 or 3 in a row, and she, allegedly, refused to step back and reflect, and try to sort things out. She kept wanting to go right back into room one with the poorly babies---even after more than 20 unexplained collapses.

 

[katydid23]

So basically it's dr j who becomes "suspicious"
Very early on.
Painting her in a bad light to others but not direct?
As far as she was aware she was doing thing's right & if she wasn't then how would she know if nobody is addressing the situation?
She had a lot of responsibility & witnessed a lot of trauma.
In the end she's taken off & left pretty much isolated & blamed for everything.
With no answers it would be hard not to self blame.
Snippet from google
Is blaming yourself a trauma response?


Blaming one's self is a common response to having a traumatic experience. This is especially true even when the traumatic event occurs through no fault of our own -we didn't ask for it, we didn't want it and we certainly weren't okay with it happening.16 Dec 2022

If innocent obviously

A same type thing as when the doctor was crying because she didn't know if she'd caused damage to a baby whist giving chest compressions.
Only benefit there was that nobody was blaming her.

UK - Lucy Letby Trial - Media, Maps & Timeline *NO DISCUSSION*

Lucy Letby is on trial in the UK, charged with the murders of 7 infants and the attempted murder of 15 other infants. Media, Maps & Timelines can be posted here. *NO DISCUSSION* in this thread or your post will be removed.

www.websleuths.com

Child K - attempted murder allegation
Child K was born at the Countess of Chester Hospital in February 2016, very premature, and weighing only 692g.
There was not time to deliver at a hospital for this type of maternity delivery care. Dr Ravi Jayaram, paediatric consultant, was present at her birth as a result.

Lucy Letby booked Child K on to the neonatal unit. Child had required help with breathing, but was stable and in as good a condition as a baby of that prematurity could be.

Arrangements were made for Child K to transfer her to Arrowe Park Hospital.
At 3.50am, Dr Jayaram was standing at the nurses’ station compiling his notes. Although he did not have a view into Nursery 1, Dr Jayaram was aware the deisngated nurse was not there, a fact backed up by door swipe data. Lucy Letby was the only nurse in room 1, alone with Child K.

"Feeling uncomfortable with this because he was beginning to notice the coincidence between the unexplained deaths and serious collapses and the presence of Lucy Letby, Dr Jayaram decided to check on where Lucy Letby was and where Child K was."

As he walked in, he could see Letby standing over Child K's incubator. He could see Child K's oxygen levels were falling. However, the alarm was not sounding and Lucy Letby was making no effort to help.

"Dr Jayaram went straight to treat Child K and found her chest was not moving, he asked Letby if anything had happened to which she replied, “she’s just started deteriorating now”.


Dr Jayaram found Child K's breathing tube had been dislodged.
Child K was very premature, and had been sedated and inactive. The tube had been secured by tape and attached to Child K's headgear.
Mr Johnson: "It's well recognised if you handle a child you can dislodge the tube accidentally, but any experienced staff member would recognise that.

"Dr Jayaram was troubled as the levels were falling and Nurse Letby had been the only person in the room."
=============================================================================================

I am not sure we can say that the doctor was not direct and no one was addressing the situation. When he walked into the room, he saw the baby was desaturating, and his chest was not moving, but the alarm was not sounding and Nurse Letby was just standing there at the cot, doing nothing.

Dr J asked her what had happened. She said he had just started deteriorating.

Dr J jumped into action at that moment, so it had to be obvious to her that he was not pleased with the situation. I am sure the doctor was not keeping it from her that he was concerned that she was just standing there while he was deteriorating.

And I am sure she saw and heard him trying to figure out why the tubes were dislodged in a tiny preemie who was sedated and inactive at the time.

As for her being blamed for everything---from what I can see from the facts so far, there are solid reasons for her to be considered a possible suspect in these incidents. It was not scapegoating, IMO.

 

[ColourPurple]

Incidentally, can anyone actually recall reporting of any notes where she says she didn't do it?

as far as I know she does not Know what it is that she was supposed to have done but she did say “I haven’t done anything wrong”.

If she had enough knowledge of what she had allegedly done to be able to say "I Killed them on purpose" and "I am evil. I did this" (even before she had been accused of killing them on purpose) then she had enough knowledge to be able to say "I didn't kill them" or "I didn't kill them on purpose" or "I didn't do this". Yet we haven't seen any of those things.

The closest we have is "I did nothing wrong" which just tells us that whatever she did do she doesn't think was wrong, and then "“I don't know if I killed them, maybe I did. Maybe this is all down to me.” So even then the "maybe I didn't" "Maybe it isn't" is only implied and never actually written down.

So, interesting that she seems able to outright write an admission "I killed them on purpose"'and "I'm evil. I did this" but doesn;t seem able to write an outright denial like "I didn't kill them(on purpose)" or "I didn't do this". Obviously it doesn't prove anything but it's interesting nonetheless.IMO

All JMO