UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #20

[Becci]

I'm not sure if daring is the right word anymore as it looks like LL will be going head to head with all the witnesses. It feels a little repetitive just reading the reports...imo

No joke i thought i had a deja vu for a second before loll

 

[IspyWithMyBigEye]

Well it's been established that synthetic insulin was given to 2 babies. The defence accept that. LL was the only nurse involved with the care of both of those babies. I think personally the prosecution established that it was extremely unlikely that insulin could have accidentally been administered (or do you disagree?) So then logically it follows that someone deliberately did it. If it were just the two insulin cases then no way would there be enough evidence to say it was LL imo. But then coupled with all the other unexplained collapses and deaths she was present for, it adds substantial weight to the evidence I think. If the defence have another credible explanation for how insulin was given to those two babies, then that would be very interesting for sure.

It’s a massive stretch of the imagination to suspect pharmaceutical companies would lace insulin into babies feeding bags. It would be impossible to do due to their rigid regulations of safety, not to mention the fact multi-million pharmaceutical companies are rigorous in safety and there would be no opportunity for someone to do such a thing.

But here’s the sting: how coincidental it would have been had feeding bags from pharmaceutical companies all arrived at that hospital; all arrived on that ward; and all arrived when LL was on duty…

 

[Xanadu62]

The part that I find difficult to get my head around, is not whether someone could have done this. I understand there are some very sick, evil people out there. Thes kinds of people would undoubtedly have no quarms with studying nursing, going to uni, focusing intently on becoming an elite nurse only to intentionally hamr babies.

I am certainly not naive enough to not want to accept that the above scenario is possible.

Where I am having trouble, is believing that this same sick, evil, twisted person would exhibit practically zero psychopathic traits.

Normally when you have a psychopath accused of murder, somehwere along the line, their character reveals something about themsleves that backs up the hypothesis that they could have behaved in the ways being suggested.

With Ms Letby, salsa dancing aside, we have nothing like this.

Tbh I don't really think she is a psychopath in a violent/obvious sense, and probably more Factitious Disorder on Others. But there are high functioning psychopaths who never commit a crime, successful CEOs for example.

In the below article, are three traits I think the prosecution have vaguely evidenced in the defendant, that could be psychopathic. As with everything, just my own opinion but I am not a qualified psychologist or a psychopath so this is only based on my own reading of the condition. I did also read that male serial killers are more likely to be violent/aggressive and female serial killers are more likely to commit crimes in caring professions/settings.

1. Rule Breaking and lack of morality - The taking home of handover notes, blood gas records etc is going against the professional code of conduct for her job, against hospital policy and rule breaking. She doesn't seem to understand that just because she wants to do something (like take home notes), she should. Doing it once or twice is acceptable but almost every day for a year is the behaviour of someone who doesn't respect hospital policy or patient confidentiality. The lack of morality is harder to prove but her constant stalking of people on social media demonstrates a lack of personal boundaries. For the parents of C, she admitted she only met them at the resus before the baby died, and searched them immediately on finishing that shift, when they were still in hospital. She justifies it as normal but doesn't seem to understand the people she searches have a right to privacy, particularly at such a vulnerable time as a baby dying.

2. Lack of contrition and self serving victimhood - I noted this over the handover notes, no acknowledgement it was wrong. In fact, even when she learnt her competency was being questioned she carried on taking the handover notes home, while declaring to colleagues she hadn't done anything wrong. And I personally thought the notes were self pitying rather than contrite.

3. Narcissism and False Superiority Complex - she did seem unmanage-able. Arguing over where she should be working, ignoring orders despite being very recently qualified in ICU, disagreeing with the coping mechanisms her team had v what she thought was right, getting upset/angry anytime she was questioned or not allowed to do what she wanted, and finally the very extreme reaction to being told she needed to re-do her competencies.

7 Characteristics of the Modern Psychopath

Seven signs of the ruthless and the heartless.

www.psychologytoday.com

MOO

 

[WaxLyrical]

It’s a massive stretch of the imagination to suspect pharmaceutical companies would lace insulin into babies feeding bags. It would be impossible to do due to their rigid regulations of safety, not to mention the fact multi-million pharmaceutical companies are rigorous in safety and there would be no opportunity for someone to do such a thing.

But here’s the sting: how coincidental it would have been had feeding bags from pharmaceutical companies all arrived at that hospital; all arrived on that ward; and all arrived when LL was on duty…

The bespoke bags are made up by the hospital pharmacy. The pharmacist has already testified.

 

[Dotta]

Her blatant contradiction to the statement given by mother of Baby E has just sealed this case for me.

Prosecution, please do your duty.

I have no further comments.

JMO

 

[WaxLyrical]

With Baby E, I feel like it’s just so unlikely that we’re left in a situation where it’s the mums word against Letby’s. Surely someone can corroborate things, this is a busy hospital unit! Obviously we have the phone call to the husband, which is a strong piece of evidence as far as I’m concerned. did we already know Caroline Oakley was in the room at 9:15? Where was she 15 minutes before?

 

[Sweeper2000]

Her blatant contradiction to the statement given by mother of Baby E has just sealed this case for me.

Prosecution, please do your duty.

I have no further comments.

JMO

I really do think the lack of door swipe data or witness testimony stating her presence on the unit at that time should be taken into account.

this case bothers me allot. The mental imagery is harsh.

 

[Xanadu62]

With Baby E, I feel like it’s just so unlikely that we’re left in a situation where it’s the mums word against Letby’s. Surely someone can corroborate things, this is a busy hospital unit! Obviously we have the phone call to the husband, which is a strong piece of evidence as far as I’m concerned. did we already know Caroline Oakley was in the room at 9:15? Where was she 15 minutes before?

This is the only witness statement we have from Caroline Oakley - from Chester Standard.

"The next evidence is an agreed evidence statement from nurse Caroline Oakley, who was shift leader on August 3, and was involved in the resuscitation efforts for Child E, but does not recall who was doing what, as it was a team process.

She adds she does not recall attending a debrief for Child E following his death."

Also this from the mum - "The mum says she did not see anyone else at 9pm when she went to the unit."

So she never testified to being in the room - the first time we have heard this is the defendant on the stand saying she was. And also saying that Caroline Oakley observed the blood. Neither Caroline Oakley or the mum have evidenced this.

And neither did the defendant at her police interview.

 

[JosieJo]

"She doesn't accept baby Es mums version on events" ... I almost burst with anger whilst catching up ...poor mum ...jmo but that's not going to go down well with the jury

 

[Xanadu62]

I really do think the lack of door swipe data or witness testimony stating her presence on the unit at that time should be taken into account.

this case bothers me allot. The mental imagery is harsh.

The door swipe data wouldn't prove anything as the defendant had started her shift at 8pm (so already on the unit and the child's designated nurse) and isn't denying she was there at 9pm. In fact she also says that Caroline Oakley was there with her at 9pm too. She's denying the blood, and screaming, and telling the mum to go away.

I think if the defence want to use text messages to prove the defendant wasn't on the unit at 7pm the way the mum of child D claimed, then we have to use the phone call made by mum E on the unit as proof that she (mum) did visit as she claimed, at 9pm.

 

[Parker Knoll]

what is it that makes you think that?

How long have you got sweep ?

 

[Tortoise]

Ms Letby says, in a message to a colleague, that she has made a 'timeline' of all the events over the last year adding: 'If they have nothing or minimal on me they’ll look silly'

Lucy Letby trial: Nurse moved to risk office after baby deaths, jury told

26 Jun 2015, Fri - LL’s day off
LL messaged colleague Minna Lappalainen: "Work has been awful."
ML: "Oh dear. Staffing probe?"
LL: "We have had three unexpected deaths, transfer out, few sick ones, unit full. What I’ve seen has really hit me tonight."

Nurse accused of murdering babies told colleague 'fate' part of deaths


Lucy Letby says she does not have much recollection of the night shift for June 9-10, in respect of Child B.

Letby is asked why she can now confirm she was in room 3 of the nursery, having not been able to remember to that in police interview. Letby says she was able to remember being in nursery room 3 after since being made aware of which babies were in room 3 that night.

Mr Myers refers to police interviews with Letby, in which she said she did not recall Child D.

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, May 5 - defence continues

 

[Sweeper2000]

Does anyone know the process for delivery of expressed breast milk On a NNU ?

I can see it being something that isn’t documented but I would have thought there would be equipment given to a mother for the process. I also don’t know if it’s stored in the fridge for a time or is expressed close to the time it’s needed. I’m just trying to figure out the likelihood that the mother wasn’t told by someone to deliver the milk, told to express the milk, told the NNU was ready for the delivery and cares, helped off the unit, or someone didn’t register that the mom was waiting at the front door of the NNU and buzzed her in around 9pm. I just find it remarkable that not a single person can corroborate her testimony.

 

[Becci]

"She doesn't accept baby Es mums version on events" ... I almost burst with anger whilst catching up ...poor mum ...jmo but that's not going to go down well with the jury

I know it would've been asked earlier on but door swipe, did that show anyone going in around 9pm?

 

[IspyWithMyBigEye]

The evidence is definitely not overwhelming it's circumstantial. We have read all the facts most of us have been here for the whole trial.

It isn’t circumstantial: if it was the CPS wouldn’t have had enough to charge her on, and refuse bail.

 

[Sweeper2000]

How long have you got sweep ?

For you, the amount of time I have will grow as needed.

 

[JosieJo]

I know it would've been asked earlier on but door swipe, did that show anyone going in around 9pm?

Only staff have a swipe card parents and visitors are buzzed in or walk in with others so no record

 

[IspyWithMyBigEye]

I do agree with you, but I hope that I am still open to changing my mind if we hear any new evidence which casts doubt upon her guilt.

Well, according to her answers today to her defence barrister, she’s tripped herself up already.

 

[IspyWithMyBigEye]

Do they always come like that to the ward/department or are they sometimes brought up individually or with the boxes having been opened?

A "very much longer shelf life" sounds like a much greater opportunity for them to be fiddled with, to my mind.

Presumably these are fetched from the stores by porters? Are they ever swapped between departments next to each other because it's quicker than getting them from the stores or the stores are awaiting more?

They’re sealed.

IF some random person decided to inject the bags with insulin they would have leaked…

Besides that, if said random person injected them with insulin how would they know only LL would use them?

 

[IspyWithMyBigEye]

(IMO) It's not so much that she says her colleagues did the feeds/administered the fluids/TPN etc, it's that she seems to have an uncanny knowledge that there was something about those administrations that resulted in the relevant collapse/death under investigation.

Since she's distancing herself from the administrations, why didn't she believe, for instance, that the collapses would have happened whether or not they'd received those administrations, and since she gladly admitted in every instance that she was part of the response effort, why wasn't she thinking the police suspected she'd done something to the babies after they'd collapsed to ensure they weren't revived? She has pinpointed the exact means by which the experts say the babies were attacked, and said that either other nurses did those or that the bags should have been checked.

Don’t forget the air injections, either…who could have injected the babies with air when it was only her nursing them?