UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #21

[ColourPurple]

10:50am

Mr Myers moves on to the case of Child J, a baby girl born on October 31, 2015 at 32 weeks + 2 days gestation, at the Countess of Chester Hospital.

Mr Myers says there were a "number of problems in pregnancy" and Child J was diagnosed with a necrotic and perforated bowel (NEC), and required transfer to Alder Hey for a stoma to be fitted.

Child J returned to the Countess of Chester Hospital on November 10.
Mr Myers refers to the events on the night shift of November 26-27.
Mr Myers says Child J had desaturations at 4.40am and 5.03am on November 27. The designated nurse for Child J that night was Nicola Dennison.

Child J had further "low desaturations" at 6.56am and 7.24am, with "eyes deviated to the left", "stiff arms" and "clenched fists".

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 16 - defence continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Diddly1]

I wonder how many more people Lucy will throw under the bus today

 

[ColourPurple]

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue

Mr Myers is starting by asking Ms Letby some general questions about Child J. Mr Myers explains that the baby had a stoma (an opening on the abdomen that can be connected to either your digestive or urinary system to allow waste to be diverted out of your body)

Mr Myers asks Ms Letby if she had much experience of stoma care, she says 'very little'. Asked how much experience other members of staff had, she said 'very similar…a lot of staff had no direct relevant or recent experience with stoma care'

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[ColourPurple]

10:54am

Letby tells the court she had "very little experience" with stomas, having seen a couple at Liverpool Women's Hospital during training.

Other staff at the neonatal unit had no relevant recent experience of stomas, Letby adds, saying stoma surgery would only be carried out at a tertiary centre such as Alder Hey [the Countess of Chester Hospital was a level 2 centre].

Asked if Countess staff would regularly handle babies with stomas, Letby said: "No."
"I don't recall anybody being overly confident."

She adds Child J's parents "took the lead" as they had the relevant experience from what they had been told at Alder Hey.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 16 - defence continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[ColourPurple]

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue

Mr Myers notes that a more junior band 4 nurse was handling and recycling Child J's stoma bags - asked if this should have been happening, Ms Letby said 'no' as she would have been even 'more unfamiliar' with stoma's than the intensive care nurses

Asked why a nursery nurse was doing this, she said 'I think the unit was very busy and we had to use staff where we could'

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[ColourPurple]

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue

In a Facebook message sent to a colleague at the time, Ms Letby commented: 'It’s shocking really that they (band 4 nurses) are willing to take the responsibility for things that they have no training or experience on…don’t think they appreciate the potential difficulties'

Ms Letby explains Child J would have been allocated to a band 4 by a shift leader. She says in an ideal world this would not be happening

Ms Letby explains: 'If they don’t have the training and experience to know what they're looking for when dealing with stomas then it’s potentially dangerous. 'It was so busy at the time, they were just trying to use staff wherever they could'

In another message sent on 25 November 2015 to a colleague, Ms Letby says the situation on the unit is 'mad'. She was off duty at the time and had been out for food and salsa lessons

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[marynnu]

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue

Mr Myers notes that a more junior band 4 nurse was handling and recycling Child J's stoma bags - asked if this should have been happening, Ms Letby said 'no' as she would have been even 'more unfamiliar' with stoma's than the intensive care nurses

Asked why a nursery nurse was doing this, she said 'I think the unit was very busy and we had to use staff where we could'

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I wonder what is meant by 'handling and recycling'?

 

[ColourPurple]

11:04am
Letby messaged a friend on November 19: "It's shocking really that they are willing to take the responsibility for things that they have no training or experience etc on. Don't think they appreciate the potential difficulties X"

Asked who she means by 'they', Letby says "the band 4 nurses". Mr Myers asks who would ask them to do it. Letby says it would be up to the shift leader to allocate them.

Asked why they would be asked to look after a baby with a stoma, Letby tells the court: "the unit was so busy at the time".

Letby messaged the same friend at November 25: "Went to las iguanas was really nice. At salsa. Had 3 missed calls they don't know how to give immunoglobulin and I was last person to give so just phoned and told them. [Nurse] said it's mad. Ravi is there. What a nightmare it's all getting they'll have to send babies out?? X"

Letby tells the court it was "mad busy" on the unit, and the staff numbers were not at the level required for the number of babies on the unit.

The night shift rota for November 26-27 is put up. Two band 4 unit nurses are named in the rota.

Child J was in room 4. The designated nurse was Nicola Dennison, a band 4 nurse also looking after one other baby in room 4.

Letby was the designated nurse for two babies in room 3 that night.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 16 - defence continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[katydid23]

10:42am

A photo of another card written by Lucy Letby is shown to the court, of her congratulating her "close friend" on the birth of her daughter.
Letby says she would "regularly" take photos of cards that she would send, and had done so "for many years".
She says she would also take photos of cards she would receive.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 16 - defence continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

I am curious to eventually hear how this info lands for the jury.

When I hear this, it is very curious, because we have been discussing possible motivations behind the actions, IF guilty. And one of the personality traits we have discussed is how focused she seems to be upon receiving praise and attention from others for whatever she does. She seems to crave it and she seemed to be kind of manipulative at times to increase that praise and attention and would text about it to others, even describing to coworkers what parents would say or write about her wonderful care, or what colleagues would say to her, etc.

So hearing and seeing how she would take photos, 'for many years', of cards she would receive from others and cards she sent, seems a bit unusual, imo. Maybe it's just me and others do the same?

I did take a picture of the last Birthday card my grandma sent to me, as she was very ill and I did think it may be the last one I'd receive. But I didn't spend years ,regularly, taking pictures of friends and family cards sent and received. It seems kind of over the top, to me. Why such an intense focus on keeping and preserving things which are just ongoing, in the moment , run of the mill communications?

 

[ColourPurple]

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
In another message sent on 25 November 2015 to a colleague, Ms Letby says the situation on the unit is 'mad'. She was off duty at the time and had been out for food and salsa lessons

In that message she says: 'Had three missed calls they don’t know how to give immunoglobin and I was last person to give so just phone and told them. (A nurse) said it’s mad. Ravi is there. What a nightmare it's all getting they'll have to send babies out?? X'

Ms Letby said she felt at the time 'they should start sending babies out to other hospitals'. Asked if there was the right level of staffing on the unit, she said 'no'

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[marynnu]

Interesting that LL states that nursery nurses will have no training in stoma care, while at the same time acknowledging that she has little experience of this herself. Both statements are quite reasonable. But it indicates to me that nobody was really at an advantage here, other than the parents of course. Stomas aren't at all common on NNUs, so where I worked we always had advice from the stoma care nurse. It's not hard to care for them in principle but very tricky to cut the right size hole in the dressings & to get the bags to stick on! A bit of a Blue Peter scenario (one for the Brits!).,
All JMO.

 

[ColourPurple]

I am curious to eventually hear how this info lands for the jury.

When I hear this, it is very curious, because we have been discussing possible motivations behind the actions, IF guilty. And one of the personality traits we have discussed is how focused she seems to be upon receiving praise and attention from others for whatever she does. She seems to crave it and she seemed to be kind of manipulative at times to increase that praise and attention and would text about it to others, even describing to coworkers what parents would say or write about her wonderful care, or what colleagues would say to her, etc.

So hearing and seeing how she would take photos, 'for many years', of cards she would receive from others and cards she sent, seems a bit unusual, imo. Maybe it's just me and others do the same?

I did take a picture of the last Birthday card my grandma sent to me, as she was very ill and I did think it may be the last one I'd receive. But I didn't spend years ,regularly, taking pictures of friends and family cards sent and received. It seems kind of over the top, to me. Why such an intense focus on keeping and preserving things which are just ongoing, in the moment , run of the mill communications?

Ideally I would have liked to know the date of the birth card, to see if it was before or after the sympathy card, but it's still very different to want to keep a memory of a sad occasion. And If guilty, obviously it's downright sick to even send the parents of a child you killed a sympathy card, let alone photograph it. JMO

 

[ColourPurple]

Interesting that LL states that nursery nurses will have no training in stoma care, while at the same time acknowledging that she has little experience of this herself. Both statements are quite reasonable. But it indicates to me that nobody was really at an advantage here, other than the parents of course. Stomas aren't at all common on NNUs, so where I worked we always had advice from the stoma care nurse. It's not hard to care for them in principle but very tricky to cut the right size hole in the dressings & to get the bags to stick on! A bit of a Blue Peter scenario (one for the Brits!).,
All JMO.

And it all seems a bit irrelevant to the case anyway. I don't think any of the medical experts have suggested that Baby J's collapse was due to the stoma not being looked after properly have they?

And yes we know it was busy and they were short staffed at times but the independent review did not find that to be the reason for the collapses and deaths either, which is why the police were involved.

JMO

 

[ColourPurple]

11:20am
Letby tells the court she had no involvement in Child J prior to her first desaturation.

A rota of the end of the shift is shown to the court, with Letby having taken on a new arrival to the unit as their designated nurse during the night.

She said that night was "very busy".

Nicola Dennison's nursing notes are shown to the court. they include: 'Shortly after the feed at 0400 [Child J] became unwell and desaturated to the 30s. Initially not apnoeic but then did require some Neopuff to recover. Colour looks pale and mottled...'

A doctor records two 'profound desats', the 1st to 30s, the 2nd to 50s. Both episodes required bagging. 'Since then pale + mottled'.

The apnoea/brady/fit chart is shown to the court, recording two events at 4.40am and 5.03am.

The 4.40am event lasted three minutes, the second lasting two minutes.

Mr Myers: "Did you have any idea this was happening at the time?"

Letby: "No."

Letby is asked if she has recollection of the second pair of events. "Yes." She adds she has independent recollection of those events.

She said, for 6.56am, she heard the monitor alarm in room 4 and Child J was "fitting", "She wasn't breathing properly...her eyes were rolling to one side of her head."

"We both heard the monitor and we [Letby and Yvonne Griffith] went in."

Letby said no-one was in room 4 at the time the alarm first went off. Dr Gibbs arrived "very quickly" and Child J was transferred to room 2.

Letby says for the second event, she was called to help, but does not recall who.

Letby is recorded on the chart subsequently administering an infusion with Mary Griffiths.

Letby says she stayed "a little later" on the unit that day for the end of her shift, but cannot recall when that was.

Letby tells the court she was unaware of the first pair of events for Child J that night, but was aware and involved in the care during the second pair of events.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 16 - defence continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[ColourPurple]

11:26am
Lucy Letby was the designated nurse for Child J for the following night (November 27-28), the court is shown.

A nursing note for Child J written by Letby from that night is shown to the court.

Mr Myers: "Any issues for [Child J] from that night, in your care?"

Letby: "No."

Letby messages a colleague about the shift of November 27-28 being "much better". Mr Myers asks what she means by that. Letby replies the workload on the unit was much more manageable than the previous night.

Mr Myers asks if a 'nicer,' lighter workload would be what she wanted.

Letby: "Yes."

Mr Myers: "Would you want things to be going wrong?

Letby: "No."

Mr Myers: "Would you want babies to be hurt?"

Letby: "No."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 16 - defence continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[ColourPurple]

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue

We're now moving to Child K. Despite being born at 25 weeks, Child K was considered to be in a good condition, but as a precaution, arrangements were made to transfer her to Arrowe Park Hospital shortly after her birth in February 2016.

While waiting for transport, she was left in the care of Ms Letby, who, the prosecution said, deliberately dislodged her breathing tube.

Dr Ravi Jayaram has previously told the court he felt uneasy about Ms Letby being left with the child

Dr Jayaram told the jury when in the witness box that the team were aware "of a number of unexpected and unusual events and we were aware of an association with Lucy Letby"

He said "no cause and effect had been ascribed", but he saw Ms Letby standing by the incubator, noticed the breathing tube was dislodged and saw the nurse do "nothing" to help until he arrived. The baby eventually stabilised, but died three days later.

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[Marantz4250b]

Maybe it's just me and others do the same?

I did take a picture of the last Birthday card my grandma sent to me, as she was very ill and I did think it may be the last one I'd receive. But I didn't spend years ,regularly, taking pictures of friends and family cards sent and received. It seems kind of over the top, to me. Why such an intense focus on keeping and preserving things which are just ongoing, in the moment , run of the mill communications?

I have a photo of a card I sent to my other half on my phone. She has one of a card her mum gave her because she wanted to show it to me. It does happen.

LLs constant messaging and taking photos seems to tie in very closely to the whole hording of the hand-over sheets, at least to my thinking it does. She's clearly got some sort of compulsive behavior trait going on - in my totally unqualified opinion, of course.

 

[marynnu]

And it all seems a bit irrelevant to the case anyway. I don't think any of the medical experts have suggested that Baby J's collapse was due to the stoma not being looked after properly have they?

And yes we know it was busy and they were short staffed at times but the independent review did not find that to be the reason for the collapses and deaths either, which is why the police were involved.

JMO

Very true. It echoes a bit what LL said about NNs previously IMO.

 

[leehull]

Ideally I would have liked to know the date of the birth card, to see if it was before or after the sympathy card, but it's still very different to want to keep a memory of a sad occasion. And If guilty, obviously it's downright sick to even send the parents of a child you killed a sympathy card, let alone photograph it. JMO

Was this the only evidence of ‘other’ photographed cards submitted? If so, I find it interesting that it also relates to a baby

IMO

 

[katydid23]

Child I

Lucy Letby Agreed Summary of Police Interviews

Prosecution evidence, February 10th 2023, Day 52 - Chester Standard live updates - Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, February 10

Mr Johnson now talks the court through a summary of Lucy Letby's police interviews for Child I.
For the first incident on September 30, Letby had no independent recollection of it. She said she did not know whether the distended abdomen was her observation or Child I's mother.
For the October 13 incident, she did recall that incident. She said she put on the light when she entered the room with nurse Ashleigh Hudson and noted Child I looked pale. Child I was shallow breathing and gasping, and the apnoea alarm was not activated. Letby could not recall giving Child I treatment prior to that event.

For October 14, Letby said she could not recall that shift.
Letby could not recall the night when Child I died, other than recalling she had died.
She said there was a feeling Child I had been transferred between hospitals too quickly.



Lucy Letby, in a subsequent police interview, said she had sent a sympathy card to the parents, and had taken a photo of the card on her phone.
She denied giving air via the NGT.
For the October 13 incident, Letby agreed it would have been difficult to see if Child I was pale without the lights being on.
She thought she and Ashleigh Hudson had been at the doorway when noting Child I was pale.

She could not recall if there was a prior examination. She said “maybe I spotted something that Ashley wasn’t able to spot” because she was “more experienced than Ashley”.

She said there was still light coming into the room from the corridor and there would be some natural light.

For October 14 and 22, Letby denied causing Child I any harm.



In a third interview, Letby was asked about texts following the October 14 shift, she agreed she had sent texts to a colleague saying Child I looked 'not good' and had asked to be assigned to her care.
She was asked why she had searched for Child I's mother on Facebook, and said she did not know, and could not recall doing so.