UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #21

[Sweeper2000]

You're definitely mistaken. As I say it hasn't been confirmed where the other notes were found. She said herself they were randomly scattered.

I’m genuinely surprised at that. It’s misleading information. We found 250 odd notes but we won’t tell you they were found scattered everywhere. I genuinely thought they had been organised/gathered. Apologies.

 

[marynnu]

You're definitely mistaken. As I say it hasn't been confirmed where the other notes were found. She said herself they were randomly scattered.

This is the mention of the folder. (Police interview Chester Standard April 26th, Day 87).

"She is asked about 'a large quantity of handover sheets' at Letby's home address. She replies there was "no specific reason" why she had taken them home.

She said she would have been aware she still had the handover sheets when she got home, and put them in a folder in the spare room."

 

[katydid23]

Yeah, agreed here, no way she didn't know the consequences.

I'm still not convinced, however, that if she's guilty the hoarding of the sheets was actually directly connected to the offences. I think there's something else going on in her psychology. She's said herself that she's not good at getting rid of things (in relation to her handwritten notes) and I think this is all related.

All MOO, obviously.

You seem to be giving her a pass here. How do we know it wasn't connected to the offences?

You are saying she knows the consequences and the importance---but she still couldn't help herself because her inability to let go is too strong.

On one hand, she claims that her job and career is 'her whole life' and means everything to her. But yet she cannot comply with one of the biggest rules of confidentiality and broke it repeatedly and acts as if it is no big deal. Like the rules do not apply to her.

I think it may be connected to the offences because I think her compulsion to hold on to things is part of the possible compulsions seen in the accusations. She seems to be overly concerned with how people view her and how they think about her nursing abilities and her competence.

Could her opportunities to help in these dramatic resuscitations be the motivating factor behind these unexpected collapses?

 

[marynnu]

I’m genuinely surprised at that. It’s misleading information. We found 250 odd notes but we won’t tell you they were found scattered everywhere. I genuinely thought they had been organised/gathered. Apologies.

I think you might have a point - see my reply above.

 

[Dotta]

I have this feeling that the "shredder" will be used at last.

To shred her credibility.

Can Defence experts/witnesses (if any) fix it?

How I would like to see Mr Nick J KC in action live!


JMO

 

[Sundial]

I’ve never said it was acceptable or not against the rules, only that it isnt evidence that she doesn’t care.

I also think within the parameters of normal human behaviour this isn’t completely outf the ordinary. The exception being the somewhat organised nature of them, they are definitely gathered.
im also not trying to justify it but am saying it’s not completely unexpected or a particularly severe transgression. I’m trying to think of a comparable wrong and am seeing someone parking on a double yellow line. It’s wrong ie against the rules but actually a victimless crime unless they did get stolen and used, it’s the risk involved that’s the problem not the taking it home.

eta. Or you could shoot someone at dawn for it, if you think it’s that bad.

Im sorry but your comparison to parking on double yellow lines against patient confidentiality- 250 odd sheets in this case- is absurd.
You’re now saying it’s the RISK involved of taking patient confidential information, rather than actual taking it home? How is that any different; i wonder if you explain this theory to the parents of all these children (not necessarily even involved in the case), they would not be quite so understandable!! It is wrong whether there is a risk or not, it should not be happening, how you can describe this as a victimless crime is beyond me to be honest.

I actually had an encounter with someone who worked in children’s service who was found to have had dozens of children’s confidential information in her personal possession and it was not taken likely.
No-one is suggesting anyone be shot at Dawn if “I think it’s that bad”, but there are protocols and procedures, policy’s and appropriate waste disposal units and advice on destroying said information should this ever happen inadvertently. When you break that and all guidelines put in place to protect people’s confidential information; then it IS a problem, it shows a lack of compliance to fulfil your position and that which is one of trust.

We could go round and round in circles on this discussion, you do not have to agree with me and that is perfectly fine. But saying it is not criminal or brushing it off as you continue to appear to do, is not acceptable in these types of roles. You have your opinion and I have mine so let’s leave it there and move on.
JMO

 

[gerbil]

Is it possible to attend the trial as a member of the public? I'm only a hop on a train to Manc and have time on my hands and a railcard..

 

[katydid23]

So we could suggest then; in 5 years she didn’t know how to appropriately deal with them.. a little bit like also hearing today about air embolism and the port being left open. So police interview says she doesn’t know exactly what it is, but today talks about that… and does seem to have some understanding of it.

We also have her saying she doesn’t know the sensitive data policy, but also says where it DOES need to go.

Im just sitting here scratching my head like I’ve missed something?!! Her responses make zero sense.
IMO

I think the confusion created is from her gaslighting.




8 gaslighting tactics to be aware of so you can properly protect yourself

1. Reality distortion. ...
2. Telling you different things at different times. ...
3. Name-calling. ...
4. Pitting two people against each other. ...
5. Love-bombing. ...
6. Intentional changes in behavior. ...
7. Deflection. ...
8. Scapegoating.

 

[bobbymkii]

I have this feeling that the "shredder" will be used at last.

To shred her credibility.

Can Defence experts/witnesses (if any) fix it?

How I would like to see Mr Nick J KC in action live!


JMO

Didn't the judge roast him once for having a boring monotonous voice?

 

[Jazmania]

This is the mention of the folder. (Police interview Chester Standard April 26th, Day 87).

"She is asked about 'a large quantity of handover sheets' at Letby's home address. She replies there was "no specific reason" why she had taken them home.

She said she would have been aware she still had the handover sheets when she got home, and put them in a folder in the spare room."

That's right, but we've heard nothing else of the folder since. That hasn't been her testimony on the stand, and the prosecution never mentioned finding a folder of notes

 

[Dotta]

Didn't the judge roast him once for having a boring monotonous voice?

This man is multi - faceted.
True professional

Sleepy voice to put defendant's guard down and then pounce
JMO

 

[marynnu]

That's right, but we've heard nothing else of the folder since. That hasn't been her testimony on the stand, and the prosecution never mentioned finding a folder of notes

I agree. I was just trying t o say that Sweeper hasn't totally imagined this!

 

[bobbymkii]

This man is multi - faceted.
True professional

Sleepy voice to put defendant's guard down and then pounce
JMO

I can relate as I too have a very monotonous voice. It works well when using sarcasm - Which Nick certainly did today with his bin bag question.

 

[Googysleuth]

I think the papers are relevant. What we know:
1. She would ought to have reasonably known it was wrong (GDPR training, mentoring etc)
2. She did it consistently over a long period
3. They weren't well organized
4. She held onto them for an unreasonable amount of time

If it was involuntary, such as compulsive behaviour, and she then didn't know how to dispose of them or felt like she would get in terrible trouble if she turned up at the hospital with it all then at best it builds the profile of someone who is unreliable in an environment that requires high levels of focus, rule abiding and reliability. At worst it builds the profile of someone who may have psychological issues with attachment that manifests in unpredictable ways.

If it was voluntary it could be suggested that she was using the information over a long period of time for planning purposes, or that she is unable to control her actions even when she knows something is wrong, or that she doesn't even have a good sense of right and wrong. It is perhaps not even a stretch to suggest that she could have felt some level of ownership over the information and the individuals involved.

Unless I am missing something there is no way that LL can plausibly explain this without some kind of negative statement on her character. This is what the prosecution will want to achieve.

MOO

 

[esther43]

I have my own thoughts and beliefs at this stage but appreciate anybodys perspective on this case, particularly if they challenge my own beliefs.

But to clarify your point on a there was a very rough Average of 50 handover notes per year kept at her home after her move (moves? I don't really count the one out of her student accommodation)

Blatant disregard for patient confidentiality imo. And that speaks to her character, again imo

You're so right. Once the case closes I imagine multiple cases will be bought against the trust for breach of GDPR alone. I don't know how they will survive the public response.

 

[katydid23]

Lack of empathy isn't evidence of committing murder though. So it's pointless in my opinion, and risks turning the jury against the prosecution. If the jury is empathetic (a word I hate) they will empathise with a young woman in the Defendant's position. She's ostensibly a normal young woman who was making a good career in a caring profession. Someone with whom they can identify.

A 'lack empathy' is not direct evidence of murder, for sure. But it is a personality description of the type of person who 'could' harm others. You'd need to have a lack empathy in order to harm babies for sure.

One of the main reasons some people give for not believing her guilt is that they don't believe she could harm the children. Not nice, normal Nurse Lucy. If the prosecution can show that she lacks empathy and is cold then they are one step closer.

I am sure they did strongly identify with her as the case began. But as she sat here discussing each incident, one by one, those incidents were stacking up. And they probably have begun questioning how so many sudden and unexplained collapses even happened.

The jury may also empathise with the victim's families here and Nurse Letby has been calling them out as liars a few times. That might not work in her favour. JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

This is the mention of the folder. (Police interview Chester Standard April 26th, Day 87).

"She is asked about 'a large quantity of handover sheets' at Letby's home address. She replies there was "no specific reason" why she had taken them home.

She said she would have been aware she still had the handover sheets when she got home, and put them in a folder in the spare room."

Thankyou Mary. I knew something was there but couldnt find it. IM sure the box of things in the spare room which we have photos of is where she stores the bits I mentioned upthread. It’s a box of important and maybe official stuff including work stuff. A box of formal stuff. That’s her home office hence the shredder.

That's right, but we've heard nothing else of the folder since. That hasn't been her testimony on the stand, and the prosecution never mentioned finding a folder of notes

So two contradictory statements from her, take your pick. With no offerings for or against by either p or d. As I say I think it’s really strange we don’t know anything about the locations of the other notes. The police must have made a note of it?

I think my point about them being put in the folder in a bundle takes all into account though and her saying she would leave them scattered doesn’t go against the idea that she would eventually collate them into the folder.

 

[Left Thoughts]

I did get to roughly once a week as well But that’s with 365 days. How many days worked in a year? other things you have to consider, the dates between the notes themselves ie is one month better or worse? Or did she keep twenty notes from one month and then no others for the next three And why? If it’s not just her general pattern of behaviour.

Well nothing I have read so far 'says' or even implies why someone would do that. It's not a prosecution or a defense point of interest to my understanding so far. Statistics are not a prosecution point.

In terms of why aka potential motive, that would be getting into speculative territory.

I have my own obvious opinions that I try to leave out of my comments as you should also do.

 

[katydid23]

I respectfully disagree, because she isn't on trial for allegedly killing babies through lack of care for protocols. That would be negligence and would be a civil claims matter.

Well, actually she is on trial for 'lack of care for protocols.' The charges are that she specifically and outrageously broke protocol about injecting air in the lines and injecting insulin into the TPNs and overfeeding babies severely. All of this is breaking protocol but to the maximum degree.

 

[katydid23]

Are we thinking he’s going to cross examine baby by baby?!

YES, I really think he will.