UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #23

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  • #141
Could this be what NJ was getting at about falsifying documents? This is concerning Baby H…

The blood transfusion is recorded by Letby as being completed at 2am.

However, a separate, handwritten paper record shows the blood transfusion having been completed at 3.05am. This separate record is not signed by anyone.

Letby records 'poor blood gas and 100% oxygen requirement' and a third chest drain was inserted around this time, the court hears
.
Dr John Gibbs records this as being about 2.15am, as the chest x-ray showed a re-accumulation of Child H's left-sided pneumothorax (ie a collapsed lung). A further, third chest drain was inserted to relieve the pressure.

A saline bolus was also started for baby H at 2.50am for 20 mins, so should have ended around 3.10am. Baby H collapsed at 3.22am.

So LL had the cover of the saline bolus ending just prior to the time of the second collapse so she would have been with child H.

Then we have some texts but these stuck out to me…

LL wanting to know how H is says she’s been helping Shelly with baby H: ‘so atleast still involved but don’t have the responsibility’ she says…

Then praises herself for making the ‘sensible decision’ to transfer baby H to arrow park after the second collapse. Talks about how it’s ‘so rubbish lately.. always seems to happen at night when less people’
 
  • #142
Of course things should be questioned. But if you have ZERO medical expertise, and ZERO experiences with preemies, then you would still need to listen to the various medical experts and rely upon their experience and knowledge.
Yes true wonder who defence team have lined up that will be interesting
 
  • #143
Could this be what NJ was getting at about falsifying documents? This is concerning Baby H…

The blood transfusion is recorded by Letby as being completed at 2am.

However, a separate, handwritten paper record shows the blood transfusion having been completed at 3.05am. This separate record is not signed by anyone.

Letby records 'poor blood gas and 100% oxygen requirement' and a third chest drain was inserted around this time, the court hears
.
Dr John Gibbs records this as being about 2.15am, as the chest x-ray showed a re-accumulation of Child H's left-sided pneumothorax (ie a collapsed lung). A further, third chest drain was inserted to relieve the pressure.

A saline bolus was also started for baby H at 2.50am for 20 mins, so should have ended around 3.10am. Baby H collapsed at 3.22am.

So LL had the cover of the saline bolus ending just prior to the time of the second collapse so she would have been with child H.

Then we have some texts but these stuck out to me…

LL wanting to know how H is says she’s been helping Shelly with baby H: ‘so atleast still involved but don’t have the responsibility’ she says…

Then praises herself for making the ‘sensible decision’ to transfer baby H to arrow park after the second collapse. Talks about how it’s ‘so rubbish lately.. always seems to happen at night when less people’
There's also the nursing notes for baby E which are at odds with the evidence presented, and I don't suppose there's any way of the prosecution proving it, but baby F's blood sugar reading written in by LL was nothing like the ones before it and after it.
 
  • #144
I agree, LL never denied she was present in the room as the baby’s O2 sats began to fall; only denied the accusation that she dislodged the ETT (breathing tube)

IMOO Dr J’s claims about LL, should be carefully scrutinised, considering how it was found that he placed one of the chest drains incorrectly- yet after the babies death, later seemed to jump on the bandwagon (along with Dr G) to blame LL for the baby’s deterioration.

Thus, is it logical to assume that the baby’s requirement for chest drains, including a poorly placed one, played no role in a cardiopulmonary collapse, than to just state LL was in the room, and states she never touched the ETT so it must have been her. Why? Obviously, because she was there.
Source-

Interesting — just wanted to add that that baby apparently survived ( thankfully!) unless I am misunderstanding something?

In reference to the statement: “yet after the babies death”

Per the article “According to reports, the child was discharged later and in a statement, her mother said her daughter had been ‘absolutely fine and healthy since’.”

Just trying to make sure I understand correctly.
 
  • #145
When did doctor Jayaram blame LL for the collapse of baby H? As far as I know he has only testified as to treatments he gave the baby. These charges against LL have been brought by the CPS, not the doctors.

Baby H didn't die by the way.

The prosecution medical experts do say the drains were not responsible for her collapses.

"She rejected Mr Myers' suggestion that the explanation for Baby H's two mystery collapses might have been the cumulative effect of a series of procedures she had been through.

'A baby will desaturate as the result of an event, but it's not cumulative and it certainly doesn't cause a cardiac arrest'."

[...]

"Earlier, Dr Dewi Evans, the other paediatrician called as an expert witness by the prosecution, said he believed the overall care Baby H received had saved her life.

At one point Mr Myers accused him of 'deliberately identifying positive factors and ignoring the problems to support these allegations'.

Dr Evans replied: 'No, they are a series of problems that they dealt with, and the proof is she is a well little girl now'."

Medics left needle inside baby's chest, Lucy Letby trial hears
I confused baby K’s case with baby H’s case, I apologise.

The baby I posted about specifically related to baby-H. Who, whilst recovered did require 20 mins of CPR following a cardiopulmonary arrest.

In relation to the allegations by Dr J, he claims she was in the room when baby K (not baby H) desaturated. LL denied that her and Dr J ever had a conversation surrounding that desaturation, or standing over the incubator doing nothing. And, instead states that she was changing a baby’s nappy and feeding them in a seperate room (one would expect her nurses notes to support that claim if accurate).

The debate, from what I can understand is that in relation to baby K and Dr J’s testimony - she apparently accepted the claim (i.e., that she was present) in an earlier police interview, and then later (last week) denied it

Playing devils advocate - I imagine with so many accusations involving babies identified using letters to respectfully maintain confidentiality- She could have been bombarded (I.e., cognitive overload), and made fast thinking quick responses, to avoid challenging all statements put to her; some may not be consistent with later reflections with greater clarity.

I note Dr J was present also at baby K’s birth and collapse within hours. Do we know who fitted the ETT? - I read that, Dr J states he removed it to give rescue breaths. I think establishing that was ‘secure’ is very important. I recall Dr J also stated inaccurately to police that baby-K was sedated, so couldn’t have displaced the ETT. This was later evidenced ‘not to be the case’ - doctors make mistakes too of-course.
 
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  • #146
Wait a minute---I think you missed the point of the post you were supposedly replying to...:oops:

LL never denied she was present in the room when Dr J walked in as the baby was desaturating----BUT NOW SHE IS DENYING SHE WAS IN THE ROOM. That is a bold move on her part...


Dr G and Dr J did not 'jump on the bandwagon' after Baby K. They had been concerned about Nurse Letby since Baby C, the 3rd baby in a short stretch of sudden collapses.


We could look at Dr J ----but then again, he was not present for all the 22 incidents. There was only one person who was the common denominator. And she is currently being scrutinised.

I have replied to tortoises post apologising for mixing up baby H’s case, with baby K’s case (being discussed) as Dr J was involved with both, I got confused reading statements.

I note that LL and Dr J’s version of events are in conflict; have replied in greater detail on above response.

Thank you, for highlighting my error, which could have confused others.
 
  • #147
I confused baby K’s case with baby H’s case, I apologise.

The baby I posted about specifically related to baby-H. Who, whilst recovered did require 20 mins of CPR following a cardiopulmonary arrest.

In relation to the allegations by Dr J, he claims she was in the room when baby K (not baby H) desaturated. LL denied that her and Dr J ever had a conversation surrounding that desaturation, or standing over the incubator doing nothing. And, instead states that she was changing a baby’s nappy and feeding them in a seperate room (one would expect her nurses notes to support that claim if accurate).

The debate, from what I can understand is that in relation to baby K and Dr J’s testimony - she apparently accepted the claim (i.e., that she was present) in an earlier police interview, and then later (last week) denied it

Playing devils advocate - I imagine with so many accusations involving babies identified using letters to respectfully maintain confidentiality- She could have been bombarded (I.e., cognitive overload), and made fast thinking quick responses, to avoid challenging all statements put to her; some may not be consistent with later reflections with greater clarity.

I note Dr J was present also at baby K’s birth and collapse within hours, so we know who fitted the ETT? I only read De J states he removed it to give rescue breaths. I think establishing that was ‘secure’ is very important. I recall Dr J also stated inaccurately to police that baby-K was sedated, so couldn’t have displaced the ETT. This was later evidenced ‘not to be the case’ - doctors make mistakes too of-course.
While the press is reporting using initials, the babies' names are being used in court and would have been used in her police interviews.
 
  • #148
There's also the nursing notes for baby E which are at odds with the evidence presented, and I don't suppose there's any way of the prosecution proving it, but baby F's blood sugar reading written in by LL was nothing like the ones before it and after it.
I remember that about baby F, they were all very low readings then suddenly the one by LL was borderline normal.

Then baby E with the whole omitted feed and 9pm debate. The registrar has denied ever telling LL to omit the feed yet she recorded it in her notes…

A further Letby note reads: 'Prior to 9pm feed, 16ml 'mucky' slightly bile stained aspirate' recorded for Child E.

9pm: The neonatal fluid chart for the 9pm column records, under milk feeds, 'omitted', and the word 'discarded' is in a non-specific line. For aspirates, the note '16ml mucky' is made
.

I believe this is the 9pm feed which baby E’s mum turned up for to find her baby bleeding and screaming and she was told to leave by LL. So IMO this note is not truthful and was only made to cover LL’s tracks, IMO.

I’m dreading hearing her testify about baby E, it’s going to be so upsetting because I have a feeling she’s going to stick to refuting what baby E’s mum said she saw.
 
  • #149
I was referring to the doctors whos statements have changed, and later evolved to seemingly merge, as opposed to the independent experts specifically. I should have made that clearer.

That said, I absolutely agree that the prosecution need to bring in expert witnesses of their own, to validate their claims that the evidence in some cases points to alternative explanations.

E.g., child-D’s case of an apparent systemic infection, who did not receive antibiotics. Alongside, child C’s infection, req. for O2 via CPAP, and accumulation of air in his abdomen on 12 th June (e.g., when LL was ‘not’ at work), but yet was considered to be ‘stable’ - that is the prosecutions experts claim until LL arrived the following day. Not to mention the case of the TPN bag contaminated with insulin put up, when LL was yet again on her day off.

Thus, I hope the defence produce alternative expert viewpoints - Since, whilst there were clearly serious concerns regarding the rise in mortality and near misses, IMO many seemingly binary perspectives have yet to be fully scrutinised.
Which doctors in particular. As dr Evan’s is an independent expert (making the assumption he is who you mean)

The problem with defence experts is if they can only put forward other ideas but cannot exclude the embolism (or other suggested cause attributed to ll) then they really just bolster the prosecutions case.
 
  • #150
I confused baby K’s case with baby H’s case, I apologise.

The baby I posted about specifically related to baby-H. Who, whilst recovered did require 20 mins of CPR following a cardiopulmonary arrest.

In relation to the allegations by Dr J, he claims she was in the room when baby K (not baby H) desaturated. LL denied that her and Dr J ever had a conversation surrounding that desaturation, or standing over the incubator doing nothing. And, instead states that she was changing a baby’s nappy and feeding them in a seperate room (one would expect her nurses notes to support that claim if accurate).

The debate, from what I can understand is that in relation to baby K and Dr J’s testimony - she apparently accepted the claim (i.e., that she was present) in an earlier police interview, and then later (last week) denied it

Playing devils advocate - I imagine with so many accusations involving babies identified using letters to respectfully maintain confidentiality- She could have been bombarded (I.e., cognitive overload), and made fast thinking quick responses, to avoid challenging all statements put to her; some may not be consistent with later reflections with greater clarity.

I note Dr J was present also at baby K’s birth and collapse within hours. Do we know who fitted the ETT? - I read that, Dr J states he removed it to give rescue breaths. I think establishing that was ‘secure’ is very important. I recall Dr J also stated inaccurately to police that baby-K was sedated, so couldn’t have displaced the ETT. This was later evidenced ‘not to be the case’ - doctors make mistakes too of-course.

I think something as significant as Dr J coming into the room and finding you doing nothing to help a baby who is collapsing and having to take over resuscitation attempts is something she’d remember, but IMO doesn’t want to admit to it due to it being harmful to her defence.

Dr J fitted the ET tube, it was in the right place an X-ray showed it was, baby K was breathing with the ET in place and was in neonatal. Then comes the part when the designated nurse went on her break…

This is the summary about that part in bold, sorry it’s long:
Dr Jayaram said he could hear Child K's heartbeat, and air going in and out of both lungs.

He said, for a 25-week gestation baby, he was "happy" with Child K's progress.

Dr Jayaram said he was happy the ventilator was working, as observed by Child K's chest moving, and being in good colour.

He tells the court that at this point, he informed the transport team about the situation, and they had advised there was a bed at Arrowe Park Hospital, and they advised for a UVC line to be inserted prior to transport.

Dr Jayaram is now being asked about Child K's desaturation at 3.50am.

A plan of the neonatal unit layout is shown to the court.

Dr Jayaram said he was "happy" with how Child K was "very very settled", having had to make only minor adjustments to the ventilator settings.

An infusion chart for the morphine is shown to the court, with a start time of 3.50am. He confirms that 3.50am would be the time that would be adminsitered.

Dr Jayaram says he was aware Joanne Williams was going to the labour ward to update the parents on Child K.

He said he was sitting at a desk, around the corner from the entrance to nursery room 1. He says he was writing in notes, or waiting for the transfer team to come back to him regarding arrangements.

He said he had been told Lucy Letby would be 'babysitting' at the time - a common term used by the hospital to describe a neonatal nurse temporarily looking after a baby in the absence of its designated nurse.

He says, at this point, in February 2016, he was aware of 'unexpected/unusual events' that had happened recently, and that Lucy Letby had been present.

He said: "I felt extremely uncomfortable [with Lucy Letby being there alone in the room with Child K]

"You can call me hysterical, completely irrational, but because of this association...

"This thought kept coming into my head. After two, two and a half minutes...I went to prove to myself that I was being ridiculous and irrational and got up.

"I think it was 2.5, 3 minutes after Jo had gone to the labour ward.

"I had not been called to review [Child K], I had not been called because alarms had gone off - I would have heard an alarm. I got up and walked through to see [Child K]."

Dr Jayaram entered nursery room 1 through the entrance doors closest to his desk. Child K was at the far side of the nursery room, with Lucy Letby present.

He said: "I saw Lucy Letby standing by the incubator. I saw her, and looked up at the monitor, and K's saturations were dropping, in the 80s and continued to drop. The ventilator was not giving out an alarm.

"I recall looking up and saying 'what's going on?' and Lucy said something along the lines of 'She's having a desaturation'."

Asked what Letby was doing, Dr Jayaram replied: "Nothing."

He says Letby didn't say anything to Dr Jayaram until he had walked over and he had asked her what was going on.

Dr Jayaram said he was looking at Child K. He disconnected the ventilator from the ET Tube and he tried to give breaths via the ET Tube, but Child K's chest was not moving.

He said he switched into 'professional mode' to resolve the situation, and it 'didnt make sense why the tube was dislodged'

He said he removed the tube - which wasn't blocked - and put a face mask to ventilate Child K. As soon as that was done, Child K's chest went up and down, without too much difficulty.

He says he does not remember anything else Lucy Letby said. He says he was probably telling her to bring equipment.

Dr Jayaram says the original tube was not blocked, and there would be no reason for that to have been blocked, for the time it had been on Child K.

Dr James Smith reintubated Child K, and the same ventilator settings were selected, indicating - Dr Jayaram tells the court - Child K had not been declining.

Dr Jayaram's notes are shown to the court, where he had described it as a 'sudden desaturation'.

The oxygen saturation levels fell to 40%.

The tube was removed, Child K was bagged via a face mask, and 'sats recovered quickly'.

A size 2.5 ET tube was placed. 'Ventilator settings as previously'.

The size of the tube "did not have an impact" on the previous ventilation, Dr Jayaram tells the court, as Child K was "ventilating effectively" and did not have an impact on the "sudden deterioration".

Dr Jayaram says he cannot recall how long Joanne Williams had been away before the sudden deterioration had taken place.

He tells the court the transport team and the parents were updated, but he does not believe they were updated about "this event".

The court is shown Dr Jayaram's notes, plus writing by someone else at 5.40am recording a vial of Curosurf given.

Notes by Dr Jayaram are written retrospectively at 7.50am. He recorded at 6.15am, Child K 'began to have lower sats'.

He says the blood gas record from that point suggested the cause of that 6.15am deterioration was an issue with ventilation. He tells the court low blood pressure is also recorded.

Saline is administered but the blood pressure remained low.

The ET tube was pulled back but saturations remained low, so the ET Tube was removed. Child K's oxygen saturation levels improved in response to bagging.

The blood pressure dropped again at 7.25am. The saturations and heart rate dropped.

Child K was taken off the ventilator and Neopuff was administered.

Cardiac compressions were started as it was 'not sure enough blood was being pumped around the body' - Child K had not gone into cardiac arrest, but the heart rate had gone under 100 beats per minute.

The ET Tube "wasn't working", as it had 'gone in further' than it should have gone, the court hears.
Child K was recorded as 'now stable'.

Dr Jayaram says he had observed a chest x-ray for Child K showing the ET Tube was in the right place
.

IMO this suggests that someone had purposely dislodged the tube. As an X-ray had shown it was in the right place and baby Knwas doing relatively well for her gestation until yet again, LL entered her orbit.

MOO
 
  • #151
I don't know that they do, and I would be especially surprised if they did it in public, in the pub.
In an ideal world, people would abide strictly by confidentiality rules, but people are fallible, I'm afraid.
 
  • #152
I really think this episode is shocking - if Dr J had arrived a minute or two later than he did, this little baby would likely have died too! (IMO)
 
  • #153
I really think this episode is shocking - if Dr J had arrived a minute or two later than he did, this little baby would likely have died too! (IMO)
Sadly little baby K did die but I think she had already been transferred to another unit when she passed away. LL was originally also charged with this murder but the charges were dropped before trial. I think it was due to baby K surviving the initial attempted murder and then being transferred it resulted in a lack of evidence IMO
 
  • #154
I really think this episode is shocking - if Dr J had arrived a minute or two later than he did, this little baby would likely have died too! (IMO)
Baby K died in agony, swollen like little balloon.
Died in parents' arms :(
 
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  • #155
Sadly little baby K did die but I think she had already been transferred to another unit when she passed away. LL was originally also charged with this murder but the charges were dropped before trial. I think it was due to baby K surviving the initial attempted murder and then being transferred it resulted in a lack of evidence IMO
She was found not guilty of murder as the prosecution offered no evidence but when initially charged she was charged with attempted murder in the alternative so she still faces that charge - at least I think that's correct!
 
  • #156
I found this article an interesting read- In a review of 326 neonates with NG tubes - Excessive air was found in 37.7 %, whilst the NG tubes were malpositioned in almost 50%.

 
  • #157
I think the reason this case has so many of us fascinated is because if you had to have a picture above the definition of nurse in the dictionary, you’d see something resembling LL’s picture of her holding that baby grow.
If you’ve had children or been in a neonatal unit, you’ll agree that on first appearances LL looks like every other midwife or nurse. In fact at first glance she looks like one you’d definitely trust to take care of your child. You’d see her enter your room and think ‘she looks nice’. You’d probably look forward to her being on shift because she appears to know what she’s doing and enjoy her job.

You immediately trust her. Now as I said above I never judge solely on appearances, I am friends with everyone all shapes and sizes, backgrounds, personal issues even past criminal history. . Everyone has different baggage and I refuse to be told ‘he’s a bad person don’t talk to him’ etc..

But I’m positive that if LL came across as one of those nurses who don’t have time for you, rude and mean looking, <modsnip - sub judice>. We naturally do judge some people at first glance, it’s only human and we can’t help it most of the time. There are some people who come across as unapproachable, and those are the ones we wouldn’t be too shocked to hear of them committing a heinous crime. When it’s someone who by appearance is nice, normal looking, a helpful nurse who loves her job and is dedicated to it we don’t want to believe that we could all be fooled by someone who looks so normal.

Serial killers don’t have a certain face, or a sign round their neck saying they’re evil. Serial killers don’t have a certain personality type, they’re not all rude and unapproachable, they don’t shuffle around head down looking unkempt and dirty. Some are extremely well functioning, they can go to work and keep up a job, they can have families and wife’s/children who don’t suspect a thing. They can fool whole communities and everyone around them, they often have these communities believing whole heartedly in their innocence because these negative behaviours have never been witnessed by the public. Parents of serial killers often have extreme difficulty coming to terms with the crimes committed by their child, they just cannot relate the heinousness to the child they gave birth to and raised, the adult on home videos at Christmas playing with the kids and helping to cook dinner. They just can’t correlate the accusations with the person they know. But we know that anyone, of any shape size, creed, religion, profession, background can become a killer, and once they’ve done it, some decide they liked the feeling of power and control, they liked the rush and taking the risk. It can become a compulsion, but even a compulsion can still be calculated and carefully thought out.

We often forget that there isn’t a one size fits all. And occasionally you get someone who really breaks the mould and is completely on the outside of the box. Someone who is extremely clever and cunning when it comes to committing their crimes but once they are caught the intelligence seems to go out the window because the lies they’ve built up over the years slowly start to come crumbling down. The shield of lies they’ve protected themselves with for so long is being stripped back and they will eventually be fully exposed. So in survival mode they will deny, deflect, cry, anything to rebuild the shield of lies. Anything to avoid admitting the truth.

<modsnip - sub judice>

All MOO
I was listening to the podcast Lady Killers by Lucy Worsley which examines historic cases involving women who have killed from a new and also feminist perspective. The latest episode is Jane Toppan Link to podcast .

One of the speakers references Narcissistic Immunity - the narcissist thinking they are so clever they will not be found guilty .
 
  • #158
Aren’t narcissists typically charming and charismatic etc?
 
  • #159
I think something as significant as Dr J coming into the room and finding you doing nothing to help a baby who is collapsing and having to take over resuscitation attempts is something she’d remember, but IMO doesn’t want to admit to it due to it being harmful to her defence.

Dr J fitted the ET tube, it was in the right place an X-ray showed it was, baby K was breathing with the ET in place and was in neonatal. Then comes the part when the designated nurse went on her break…

This is the summary about that part in bold, sorry it’s long:
Dr Jayaram said he could hear Child K's heartbeat, and air going in and out of both lungs.

He said, for a 25-week gestation baby, he was "happy" with Child K's progress.

Dr Jayaram said he was happy the ventilator was working, as observed by Child K's chest moving, and being in good colour.

He tells the court that at this point, he informed the transport team about the situation, and they had advised there was a bed at Arrowe Park Hospital, and they advised for a UVC line to be inserted prior to transport.

Dr Jayaram is now being asked about Child K's desaturation at 3.50am.

A plan of the neonatal unit layout is shown to the court.

Dr Jayaram said he was "happy" with how Child K was "very very settled", having had to make only minor adjustments to the ventilator settings.

An infusion chart for the morphine is shown to the court, with a start time of 3.50am. He confirms that 3.50am would be the time that would be adminsitered.

Dr Jayaram says he was aware Joanne Williams was going to the labour ward to update the parents on Child K.

He said he was sitting at a desk, around the corner from the entrance to nursery room 1. He says he was writing in notes, or waiting for the transfer team to come back to him regarding arrangements.

He said he had been told Lucy Letby would be 'babysitting' at the time - a common term used by the hospital to describe a neonatal nurse temporarily looking after a baby in the absence of its designated nurse.

He says, at this point, in February 2016, he was aware of 'unexpected/unusual events' that had happened recently, and that Lucy Letby had been present.

He said: "I felt extremely uncomfortable [with Lucy Letby being there alone in the room with Child K]

"You can call me hysterical, completely irrational, but because of this association...

"This thought kept coming into my head. After two, two and a half minutes...I went to prove to myself that I was being ridiculous and irrational and got up.

"I think it was 2.5, 3 minutes after Jo had gone to the labour ward.

"I had not been called to review [Child K], I had not been called because alarms had gone off - I would have heard an alarm. I got up and walked through to see [Child K]."

Dr Jayaram entered nursery room 1 through the entrance doors closest to his desk. Child K was at the far side of the nursery room, with Lucy Letby present.

He said: "I saw Lucy Letby standing by the incubator. I saw her, and looked up at the monitor, and K's saturations were dropping, in the 80s and continued to drop. The ventilator was not giving out an alarm.

"I recall looking up and saying 'what's going on?' and Lucy said something along the lines of 'She's having a desaturation'."

Asked what Letby was doing, Dr Jayaram replied: "Nothing."

He says Letby didn't say anything to Dr Jayaram until he had walked over and he had asked her what was going on.

Dr Jayaram said he was looking at Child K. He disconnected the ventilator from the ET Tube and he tried to give breaths via the ET Tube, but Child K's chest was not moving.

He said he switched into 'professional mode' to resolve the situation, and it 'didnt make sense why the tube was dislodged'

He said he removed the tube - which wasn't blocked - and put a face mask to ventilate Child K. As soon as that was done, Child K's chest went up and down, without too much difficulty.

He says he does not remember anything else Lucy Letby said. He says he was probably telling her to bring equipment.

Dr Jayaram says the original tube was not blocked, and there would be no reason for that to have been blocked, for the time it had been on Child K.

Dr James Smith reintubated Child K, and the same ventilator settings were selected, indicating - Dr Jayaram tells the court - Child K had not been declining.

Dr Jayaram's notes are shown to the court, where he had described it as a 'sudden desaturation'.

The oxygen saturation levels fell to 40%.

The tube was removed, Child K was bagged via a face mask, and 'sats recovered quickly'.

A size 2.5 ET tube was placed. 'Ventilator settings as previously'.

The size of the tube "did not have an impact" on the previous ventilation, Dr Jayaram tells the court, as Child K was "ventilating effectively" and did not have an impact on the "sudden deterioration".

Dr Jayaram says he cannot recall how long Joanne Williams had been away before the sudden deterioration had taken place.

He tells the court the transport team and the parents were updated, but he does not believe they were updated about "this event".

The court is shown Dr Jayaram's notes, plus writing by someone else at 5.40am recording a vial of Curosurf given.

Notes by Dr Jayaram are written retrospectively at 7.50am. He recorded at 6.15am, Child K 'began to have lower sats'.

He says the blood gas record from that point suggested the cause of that 6.15am deterioration was an issue with ventilation. He tells the court low blood pressure is also recorded.

Saline is administered but the blood pressure remained low.

The ET tube was pulled back but saturations remained low, so the ET Tube was removed. Child K's oxygen saturation levels improved in response to bagging.

The blood pressure dropped again at 7.25am. The saturations and heart rate dropped.

Child K was taken off the ventilator and Neopuff was administered.

Cardiac compressions were started as it was 'not sure enough blood was being pumped around the body' - Child K had not gone into cardiac arrest, but the heart rate had gone under 100 beats per minute.

The ET Tube "wasn't working", as it had 'gone in further' than it should have gone, the court hears.
Child K was recorded as 'now stable'.

Dr Jayaram says he had observed a chest x-ray for Child K showing the ET Tube was in the right place
.

IMO this suggests that someone had purposely dislodged the tube. As an X-ray had shown it was in the right place and baby Knwas doing relatively well for her gestation until yet again, LL entered her orbit.

MOO
Baby-K desaturates at 3.50 am and Dr J suspects LL dislodged ET tube - he removed the ET to administer rescue breaths.
- Was this tubes position checked via X-Ray after being fitted/prior to removal?

Or was he referring to the newly fitted ETT after the desaturations were corrected.

At 6.15 baby-K desaturates again, it appears the ETT was removed again, and replaced - so, did he mean the position of this ETT was X-rayed?

I note above that, at some later point it was established that the ET tube was ineffective due to being placed too low.

However, I assume this relates to the 3rd tube, if an ET was fitted prior to 3.50 AM (e.g., tube 1) and replaced post collapse (e.g., tube 2) then removed again post after the 6.15 collapse before being re ventilated (e.g., req. a 3rd ETT)

So, if 3 tubes were used - I am not sure which tube Dr J is referring to that he X-Rayed, or if he means all?

The one of significance of course would be the first ETT - which he has accused LL of dislodging. Which, if dislodged at all….could have rationally occurred due to a non-sedated baby moving IMO.

The added fact that baby K, experienced later desaturations without any argument of a dislodged tube is IMO significant.
 
  • #160
Which doctors in particular. As dr Evan’s is an independent expert (making the assumption he is who you mean)

The problem with defence experts is if they can only put forward other ideas but cannot exclude the embolism (or other suggested cause attributed to ll) then they really just bolster the prosecutions case.
Specifically, Dr J and Dr G.
In relation to Dr Evans, I gather that he/she made conclusions based on the evidence at hand including, but not limited to the above doctors medical notes.
My rational being that, an argument to explain a baby’s collapse, can be both possible and rational, but that does not prove that is the cause (i.e., correlation does not prove causation).

This, is the biggest issue in my view in relation to this case, many of the medics propositions, could be explicated by alternative rational arguments. E.g., scientific research on the risk of AE d/t NG tubes, or mis-placement and/or movement of NG tubes.

ETA- I wouldn’t want to defend a potential baby k*****, equally, I wouldn’t want to stay silent if I felt I was witnessing potential social injustice.
 
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