UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #25

[Tortoise]

I'm predicting 1 day

I think two.

I don't think they'll want to look inappropriately hasty. JMO

 

[Cluedoneit]

Hypothetically, if guilty I would have asked my solicitor to bargain a plea in exchange for time served in a secure psychiatric facility. Although not amazing, conditions there would be much better than a high security prison. Then again, I’m not really a gambler, and if Guilty, Letby managed to gamble and win for at least a year, much likely far longer.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I think it's simply that she has nothing to lose. She wouldn't have had any credit for pleading guilty early (IMO) due to the severity of the charges, so this is literally her only shot of ever seeing the light of day again. JMO.

I think you are right. I’m wondering if she really is that cold, it’s not even coldness imo if guilty it’s an astonishing vacuum of all considered to be human.

 

[MachinaCollecta]

Hypothetically, if guilty I would have asked my solicitor to bargain a plea in exchange for time served in a secure psychiatric facility. Although not amazing, conditions there would be much better than a high security prison. Then again, I’m not really a gambler, and if Guilty, Letby managed to gamble and win for at least a year, much likely far longer.

Pleading guilty to being a child murderer is probably not an option most people would pick IMO. Unless it’s absolutely irrefutable you’re going to fight for your life, guilty or not.

 

[Sundial]

Can anyone explain a reason why no expert witnesses have appeared for the defence ? I don't mean that as a stupid question. Is it down to the fact that no expert wished to be involved or what they said could easily be thrown into doubt?

I am gobsmacked !!!!!!!

Do we know when the closing speeches and the judges summing up will take place ?

Just my own opinion; but after the evidence heard from the prosecution, if I was a witness for the defence (eg character or colleague etc), I would certainly retract any previous agreement in support for the defence. I most definitely would not want any association with it. Understandable really- but if she was innocent and everyone liked her and was a good nurse etc, nice LL etc, *where* are these people giving evidence in supporting that? Shocking.

Moo

 

[Marantz4250b]

Hypothetically, if guilty I would have asked my solicitor to bargain a plea in exchange for time served in a secure psychiatric facility. Although not amazing, conditions there would be much better than a high security prison. Then again, I’m not really a gambler, and if Guilty, Letby managed to gamble and win for at least a year, much likely far longer.

We don't really do plea bargains here, though (which is a very good thing, IMO). Also, you can't argue to be sent to a secure psychiatric facility if what you did was not caused by a psychiatric illness.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Just my own opinion; but after the evidence heard from the prosecution, if I was a witness for the defence (eg character or colleague etc), I would certainly retract any previous agreement in support for the defence. I most definitely would not want any association with it. Understandable really- but if she was innocent and everyone liked her and was a good nurse etc, nice LL etc, *where* are these people giving evidence in supporting that? Shocking.

Moo

I agree. The fact that she's basically slagged off everyone who'd crossed her path for the past several years won't have helped her in that regard.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I'm predicting 1 day

I think they will go through all the evidence again just so they can be satisfied they are sure, that will take a while IMO, then I think the verdict is certainly and curiously one sided. Two weeks to go through the evidence to be sure to be sure then that’s seemingly a foregone conclusion.

 

[JosieJo]

I think the evidence said that the results were phoned through but the doctor who received them was in training or something like that and didn't understand the implications.

Yes and I'm not 100% but I think it was more than 5 days

 

[Jazmania]

I think longer. The attempted murder cases will be the ones which will require the most deliberation, I think.

True, but I think each jury member will each have already made up their mind. Plus they'll want to get out of there as quickly as possible. There's 17 charges I think. I predict on average 1 hour per charge, but I think the murder charges could take considerably less time.

 

[Jayney404]

If found guilty I assume we can stop writing a litany of caveats after each post?! I’m moo-ing so much I think I’m grass fed :-/

Moo etc etc

 

[Jazmania]

True, but I think each jury member will each have already made up their mind. Plus they'll want to get out of there as quickly as possible. There's 17 charges I think. I predict on average 1 hour per charge, but I think the murder charges could take considerably less time.

I realise I just totally contradicted my own 1 day prediction (I'm doing a LL). So I'm predicting 2 days.

 

[Sundial]

Just want to thank everyone who has contributed to the reporting and dissecting of the information over the past 7? months. Also to the discussions and subject knowledge etc from everyone and of course the mods in keeping WS a balanced and enjoyable forum.

Let’s hope justice is served for these families whatever the outcome and the jury get to enjoy some return to normality.

 

[Marantz4250b]

True, but I think each jury member will each have already made up their mind. Plus they'll want to get out of there as quickly as possible. There's 17 charges I think. I predict on average 1 hour per charge, but I think the murder charges could take considerably less time.

Unless they know the in's and out's of the specific points of law then even if they have they may still have to change their minds depending upon what the judge instructs them.

 

[Dcflag]

RSBM

Won't they, in effect, have 22 separate cases to consider though?

I would have thought two weeks might be on the 'rapid' side, even coming to an easily agreed verdict (and not a majority one) of two 'cases' per day takes it to two weeks minimum.

It would not surprise me if it took four weeks or more to reach the full 22 verdicts.

The defence is so.. bare bones, I feel like each charge has a lot less to deliberate on. It’s much more a case of “so do you think this baby was intentionally harmed?” <modsnip - sub judice opinion of guilt or innocence> and then looking at the medical experts opinion and the timeline of events looking for opportunity.

Sure there’s bit and pieces to quibble over but for me because the defence is so… barely there, there’s almost no defending points to consider.

Edited to add I’m not even sure her own testimony counts as defence. She has added fuel to the idea she was having an affair, she’s shown she either was texting during cares or falsified medical records which means any of her written records are in doubt of being accurate or true. She has very little memory despite insisting her memory is good. She’s shown she lies, even on the stand evidenced by the pj debate.

She’s made herself sound like she lies and is unreliable as a narrator. Which just supports other testimonies from people such as there parents or dr J when it comes to specific events, like telling the mother to go back to the ward.

 

[WaxLyrical]

Well, I always said I would wait to hear both prosecution and defence before drawing any personal conclusions. But who knew there would be no defence!! (Well, apart from Tortoise lol)

 

[Sundial]

I agree. The fact that she's basically slagged off everyone who'd crossed her path for the past several years won't have helped her in that regard.

Absolutely!! At the start of the trial I honestly anticipated her colleagues or some from her social circle, dr choc, manager, anyone to support or give witness to how hard she worked etc. Although, we did hear from the manager at the start and dr choc and some of her colleagues basically supporting some of the medical stuff, standard practice, where they were etc.

Is it that they can’t be called back as witnesses for either side??

But the moment she took the stand, even if they were in favour of supporting her innocence and *were* allowed to give witness evidence for the defence- if that were me personally and I was MT or JJK and thought she was innocent and was then throwing us all under the bus like that; absolutely no way, especially given the nature of these charges she’s accused with; no way on earth would I agree to be a witness for the defence.

There’s also the matter of hearing all this harrowing stuff without a clear cause; I think it may changed a lot of peoples perspective. If guilty of such awful charges, would anyone be able to live with themselves knowing they had stood as witness for her, even if it was in good faith. Imagine the association with that for one of the worst alleged crimes the uk has seen; doesn’t bare thinking about.

All my own opinion and only if guilty etc
JMO MOO

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Just settled down to catch up on the defence case…

A plumber telling court about a couple of blocked sinks and pipes is almost amusing if it weren’t evidence in such a horrific case.

IMO BM shouldn’t have bothered with this witness, it’s an absolute anti climax and just shows how much the prosecution have on LL. All those months of evidence we’ve heard, witnesses, hospital records, diagrams, experts, in depth testimony about how TPN bags work, insulin, air embolism. I can’t even list everything we’ve heard from the prosecution. For the defence to start with LL’s constant contradictions then end with a plumber testifying about something that has absolutely no relevance whatsoever to babies collapsing and dying. Nothing to do with insulin or air embolism. Literally nothing atall IMO. Tells me a lot about what BM had to work with IMO.

I’m not shocked atall. I didn’t think there was any way of refuting the expert evidence but that’s JMO, any experts BM contacted whilst putting his case together IMO may have told him the same, that everyone contacted for an opinion by the defence agreed with the prosecution experts. Again JMO

So many routes he could have tried to go down, trying to refute the allegation of liver trauma being inflicted purposely, the allegation of overfeeding, the allegation of someone causing babies to bleed, the allegation of air embolus, he could have tried to prove a conspiracy, cover up, LL’s character…

The fact he hasn’t done any of those things tells me IMO that he couldn’t find anyone to refute the cause liver trauma, overfeeding, air embolism etc.. and if guilty, maybe more about LL’s character and past will come to light once reporting restrictions are lifted but that is JMO.

If found guilty I suspect the words ‘ineffective representation by counsel’ would come up IMO… maybe BM wants to get as far away from this case as possible as fast as possible.

Hardly worth getting everyone into court for the sake of 45 minutes.. surely the court knew that this was the last witness, why couldn’t the jury instructions begin immediately?

All MOO

 

[Anxala]

Just my own opinion; but after the evidence heard from the prosecution, if I was a witness for the defence (eg character or colleague etc), I would certainly retract any previous agreement in support for the defence. I most definitely would not want any association with it. Understandable really- but if she was innocent and everyone liked her and was a good nurse etc, nice LL etc, *where* are these people giving evidence in supporting that? Shocking.

Moo

Character witnesses - family, friends, colleagues - would not have helped here so no surprise whatsoever that there weren't any.

All character witnessess can attest to is the LL they knew/know. They could eg. say she was the nicest, kindest, most generous, most caring person on earth who, in their opinion, wouldn't hurt a fly, but it still wouldn't amount to a hill of beans in the context of the prosecution's case against her. Only expert witnesses would have been able to put a dint in that. And since none were called, and since BM is a highly respected, seasoned barrister, the conclusion has to be that there was no credible dint to be found.

JMO etc

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Also, the judge giving 3rd July as a rough date for deliberations to begin, makes me think that NJ is going to have a closing argument lasting days and days IMO, I think he will be extremely thorough.

What can BM say? LL can’t recall and the plumber said there was a sink blockage? Can he talk about sub optimal care, staffing levels and mistakes in closings if he hasn’t presented any witnesses to testify to examples of this and LL ruled them out in majority of cases as being a factor… He can’t really rely on things that LL said in her testimony because most of what she said conflicted with what she said in police interview and then changed again during cross. I don’t think BM’s closing will last long at all MOO