UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #25

[Jayney404]

To me Letby taking the stand changed the way the defence were planning to run things completely, she must of insisted possibly, the narc in her rearing it’s ugly head again. I think they must of had “ experts “ lined up to refute the prosecution in some way and she utterly blew it for them, hence why we have only heard from the plumber. It’s utterly staggering in a case of this magnitude. After Letby going in the box as posters have said upthread nobody in their right minds would go in for the defence - it’s career suicide.
I say a few days for the verdict. Usually it’s a show of hands when they sit down and then work out from there.
Dear god what an absolute mess and I do think BM will be furious tbh.
Just my musings obviously.

Totally agree, I imagine BM knew ll taking the stand would be an unmitigated disaster but was powerless to stop her.

Slinging mud or sewage in ll’s case is never a good look but standing up and calling several consultants, bereaved parents and close colleagues incompetents and liars is pretty strong stuff.

I’m glad BM didn’t call the father in the disputed phone call to the stand. I think even he knew that would be the final insult.

Moo moo

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

Urm if we set aside the possibility that LL is a liar, can anyone think of any reasons why she would plead not guilty? The defence has been lacking anything Of substance. If there had been consistent and “massive“ hospital failings, the defence would have been able to bring witnesses forward to explain why these failings could account for the events but that’s a no and if bias was a feature in the cases i don’t think the circumstantial evidence would have clearly supported the prosecutions account.

All or nothing approach.

People usually plead guilty to benefit from a reduced sentence . But some crimes are so horrific that even pleading guilty will result in a whole life tariff. That See You Next Tuesday who murdered and raped Sarah Everard pleaded guilty. He still got a whole life tariff because he was a police officer.

So if you want to have even a glimmer of a chance of not spending the rest of your life in jail, then I suppose you plead not guilty

 

[Sundial]

This seems to be the only way in which BM and LL aligned. Both making staggering assertions then failing to remotely corroborate them with any evidence.

It was scraping the bottom of the proverbial barrel to drag the poor handyman out to reel off his entire duties list for 2015/16 with only one incident baring relevance to the unit let alone case.

I get that it had to be done in the interests of a full and fair trial but I imagine it was far from the bang ll was looking to go out on.

JMO moo moo

Im interested; if anyone legal knows, if she feels after today that it hasn’t gone as well as she hoped, IF she wanted to change her plea (IF she is actually guilty), is it possible to do so before jury deliberations and what kind of outcome would happen next if she did?

Genuine question, just curious if she decided to suddenly change her plea. (I anticipate whether even IF found guilty by the jury though, whether there would then be some dispute of mistrial or whatever by her or whether she would except the verdict.)

Only IF GUILTY JMO etc

 

[Jayney404]

Deliberations may take a while I feel, the fact a life sentence tariff is a realistic possibility will give jurors pause for thought. People don’t like to make hasty decisions when the consequences involve a lot more than a slap on the wrist.

The cognitive dissonance piece still comes into play here too she’s a woman in loco parentis seemingly a caregiver. Casey Anthony is a prime case where even though the mother lied and provably lied a guilty verdict was never reached.

Finally I still think motive will be a barrier for some jurors, the why is still very elusive. If she’d been reported as screaming at the babies before they collapses I think jurors would feel more assured about visible negative behaviours. There is such opacity around her childhood and history it’s a point of contention for some id wager.

Moo moo moo

 

[Cluedoneit]

Im interested; if anyone legal knows, if she feels after today that it hasn’t gone as well as she hoped, IF she wanted to change her plea (IF she is actually guilty), is it possible to do so before jury deliberations and what kind of outcome would happen next if she did?

Genuine question, just curious if she decided to suddenly change her plea. (I anticipate whether even IF found guilty by the jury though, whether there would then be some dispute of mistrial or whatever by her or whether she would except the verdict.)

Only IF GUILTY JMO etc

She can change her plea at any point, but I’d be interested to know how angry the judge would be if she did at this stage. Those poor parents of babies A-Q have been through such a long trial, not to mention the jury and the court’s time.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Im interested; if anyone legal knows, if she feels after today that it hasn’t gone as well as she hoped, IF she wanted to change her plea (IF she is actually guilty), is it possible to do so before jury deliberations and what kind of outcome would happen next if she did?

Genuine question, just curious if she decided to suddenly change her plea. (I anticipate whether even IF found guilty by the jury though, whether there would then be some dispute of mistrial or whatever by her or whether she would except the verdict.)

Only IF GUILTY JMO etc

I think she can but I fail to see any benefit to her.

 

[Jazmania]

I think if guilty, her motive will never be known or understood. There is no understandable logical reason why she (or anyone) would cause such pain to others, including her poor parents as well as the parents of the babies in this case. No idea why she would risk ruining her own life and livelihood. There must be something pathologically and psychologically wrong with her IMO. Perhaps she sought and got off on the attention that babies collapsing and dying brought her. I think the evidence supports this. A kind of Munchausen by proxy (although that is such a crime drama trope). I wonder if after the trial is over we will hear accounts that when she was younger she sought attention from medical professionals by pretending to be ill herself. We have the long term thyroid problems she mentioned to Dr Choc, that could be to get attention. At trial we now have PTSD. Also her pricking her finger and going to A&E and fainting could support this.

 

[ColourPurple]

All or nothing approach.

People usually plead guilty to benefit from a reduced sentence . But some crimes are so horrific that even pleading guilty will result in a whole life tariff. That See You Next Tuesday who murdered and raped Sarah Everard pleaded guilty. He still got a whole life tariff because he was a police officer.

So if you want to have even a glimmer of a chance of not spending the rest of your life in jail, then I suppose you plead not guilty

Plus looking at it in terms of long term "survival" in prison, if found guilty, its slightly better to go to prison still protesting your innocence and claiming to be a scapegoat...than to go as a self confessed child murderer.

JMO, IF guilty.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

Hypothetically, if guilty I would have asked my solicitor to bargain a plea in exchange for time served in a secure psychiatric facility. Although not amazing, conditions there would be much better than a high security prison. Then again, I’m not really a gambler, and if Guilty, Letby managed to gamble and win for at least a year, much likely far longer.

Some of those places can be worse than prison though, can’t they?

 

[notsure]

Some of those places can be worse than prison though, can’t they?

Doesn't sound like my ideal residence...

 

[notsure]

Plus looking at it in terms of long term "survival" in prison, if found guilty, its slightly better to go to prison still protesting your innocence and claiming to be a scapegoat...than to go as a self confessed child murderer.

JMO, IF guilty.

If convicted, there will be appeals, surely.

 

[ColourPurple]

If convicted, there will be appeals, surely.

I'm sure there will, if guilty. Which is another reason to plead not guilty, even if you are.

JMO if guilty

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

Plus looking at it in terms of long term "survival" in prison, if found guilty, its slightly better to go to prison still protesting your innocence and claiming to be a scapegoat...than to go as a self confessed child murderer.

JMO, IF guilty.

Does the UK have a prison (or a wing on a prison ) just for convicted child killers? Because the safest thing would presumably be to put them all together rather than dot them around the country in different maximum security prisons - because even where those prisons are filled with mass murderers of adults , child killers are seen differently.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

If convicted, there will be appeals, surely.

Yes, it will be interesting to see on what grounds if she is found guilty.

There have been so many apparent experts online putting forward alternative explanations. Maybe they simply fall apart when scrutinised; or maybe they are being saved for an appeal.

 

[Cluedoneit]

Some of those places can be worse than prison though, can’t they?

Off topic, but I was taught as a post grad by the then board member of the prison reform trust. At the time, she made it pretty clear that being a compliant prisoner in a forensic hospital was a better existence than a category A. That was a very long time ago, and before Holloway was closed, so the situation may have reversed.
If guilty, it’ll be interesting to see if she’s sent to Bronzefield near her parents or New Hall in Yorkshire nearer her friends.

 

[bbsaz]

I'm thinking 3-4 weeks for jury deliberation

 

[Penny68]

*Just on a roll here with my thoughts*

I often think those that do serious wrongs to people, they only see the person they are inflicting pain/death on.
As if it is just that person and the evil-doer at those times, which of course it is initially.

Only when they are caught, or even when they are actually in court facing all what they did, does reality kick in.

The actual wider circle that what they did rippled out to. ie: the evil-doers parents, kin, friends, work mates etc, and of course the victims heartbroken families, friends etc as well.

Naturally my heart aches for the victims families, how they can possibly move on in some form from then on would be near impossible to imagine.

Also I think of the evil-doers family. They suffer immensely too most likely thinking ''That person there guilty of these evil doings is what we brought into the world''.

How on earth they cope in the world from then on beats me. Their family member basically is tucked up in prisons/psychiatric facilities.

Yet the innocent family of those evil-doers have fingers pointed at them, homes trashed, difficult to be at work/school with all who knows what happened, along with so many things that will come their way.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Deliberations may take a while I feel, the fact a life sentence tariff is a realistic possibility will give jurors pause for thought. People don’t like to make hasty decisions when the consequences involve a lot more than a slap on the wrist.

The cognitive dissonance piece still comes into play here too she’s a woman in loco parentis seemingly a caregiver. Casey Anthony is a prime case where even though the mother lied and provably lied a guilty verdict was never reached.

Finally I still think motive will be a barrier for some jurors, the why is still very elusive. If she’d been reported as screaming at the babies before they collapses I think jurors would feel more assured about visible negative behaviours. There is such opacity around her childhood and history it’s a point of contention for some id wager.

Moo moo moo

I don't think motive (whether any were proved or not) will be a factor here when it comes down to it. The prosecution does not need to demonstrate any motive at all and that may even me mentioned by the judge. What the judge certainly will say is that the only thing which matters is whether the evidence presented by the prosecution has made them sure as to her guilt. Why she did it (if guilty) is basically irrelevant.

 

[Dotta]

And Johnson took most of the wind out of the sails at the end:

Mr Mansutti agrees that one of the problems for the flooding was adults 'putting things down sinks'.
One incident is somebody 'forcing a wipe towel down a sink'. Mr Mansutti accepts an incident did take place.
He says none of the incidents led to no hand washing facilities availability, and there is a system in place.

work was done on moving sewage pipes away from the unit room in future, "so it couldn't happen again".
He says, for his recollection, it was a "one-off".

Mr Johnson says half the incids listed did not take place in the 0 ⁹ neonatal unit. Mr Mansutti says there would not have been a direct effect on that unit for those days.


SO IT WAS A BIG NOTHING BURGER and Meyers had to end his defense case on it.

Wow!
Even I am simply amazed

Although I predicted a few months ago there would be no additional Experts.

Just saying

But finishing with only a plumber

Wow! Just Wow!

 

[marynnu]

I bet Myers could have crawled up his own backside ending on one witness ..a plumber where the prosecution shows some of the incidents didn't occur on the neonatal and it never led to the inability to wash hands

He'd probably have found more raw sewage up there.