UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #25

[notsure]

Agreed, but there still have to be grounds for the appeal. "I never done it Guv" doesn't cut it. Grounds has to be in the form of new evidence - generally - and it's difficult to see where that might come from, IMO.

Or discrediting evidence previously presented. New scientific evidence using new techniques, that kind of thing. IMO

 

[Blondiexoxo]

A good reason for doing so (IMO) would be because everyone was talking about the suddenness and unexpected nature of the early deaths.

If it’s found that the prosecution proved she altered notes, (when she has denied it over and over again). Then IMO because LL hasn’t given a reason for doing so, then the only other explanation we’ve heard for why she’d do it is if as the prosecution allege she’s ‘a very calculating woman’ to quote NJ.

IMO whether she altered medical records would be one of the first questions to answer before debating the actual charges, I believe the answer to that question could help towards reaching a verdict but that’s JMO and means nothing because I’m just a crazy lady at home reading updates and driven to the point of distraction by this case don’t know how I’d cope with the stress of being a juror!
All MOO!

 

[notsure]

If I was a juror I’d hope all agreed verdict quickly , then put our respective feet up and enjoy a proper chat and nibbles before announcing verdict.

If G or NG a really quick verdict would make it look like they hadn’t deliberated enough on such a complex case . IMO

As they have never discussed any of it before, I suppose they will have to go through each case, every baby from A through Q, give each one their consideration and come to a decision on each one. That should take a fair amount of time. IMO

 

[WaxLyrical]

Anyone else feeling a bit sorry for the plumber? Been working there since the 80s, probably was cursing the place while dealing with a clogged sluicemaster and literal crap in the labour ward, thinking to himself “can this job get any worse?”, and the answer was yes, yes it does get worse, one day you’ll be testifying about this as the only witness for the defence in a baby murder trial. Poor guy.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Yeas, they do do plea bargaining but in this case with so many charges I think she fancied her chances.

I'm not sure we do actually do plea bargaining here, though. At least not in the way you see in US cases whereby it's done essentially as a way to avoid the expense of a trial. Or, as it appears to me - the accused gets threatened with a much more severe crime which isn't applicable to the facts and intended to scare them into pleading to a slightly lesser one. Which, to my mind at least, is not "justice" at all.

Yes, you can put forward certain defences, such as the various diminished responsibility or "not guilty by reason of insanity" ones, and suchlike. There are also some statutory considerations as to sentence for an early guilty plea but these are set in law and aren't the same as offering a plea to a lesser crime.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Or discrediting evidence previously presented. New scientific evidence using new techniques, that kind of thing. IMO

Yes, that's kind of what I mean. When you think about it, you can only discredit the original evidence with new facts pertaining to it. Which is, in reality, new evidence.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Omg, I gave a month for deliberations before, given the defence I think I grisly underestimated. What a joke.

I still think it will be a good week or maybe even 2-3, possibly (but not likely) a month because these jurors will have been unable to talk about the evidence they’ve heard with anyone until they start deliberating. Can you imagine 12 people all wanting to get their thoughts heard after 8 months+ of being basically sworn to silence! I could imagine it taking atleast 3 days to just get everything off their chest, and if there’s one or more jurors who disagree with the rest then they’ll have to start looking at evidence because a lot was said during the prosecution case, BM cross examined majority of the witnesses so they’d have to weigh that up.

I think it’s possible either way even if they all agreed from the word go then they’d decide to look back at any important points. Judges sometimes discourage jurors from taking an immediate vote without discussing evidence first too. The Stauch trial comes to mind and it wasn’t a question of if she did it because she’d admitted it, sanity was the question at hand, it was obvious to pretty much everyone on the thread that she was sane, and deliberations went on for around 2 days when I thought it’d be a max of 3 hours!

We could be in for a long wait, jurors want to be seen to be giving it serious thought too. 8 months is an incredibly long trial, we’ve seen 2-3 week long trials not get a verdict for up to a week.
Or it could be a couple of days you just never know which way it could go. I’d guess around a week.. but we don’t know if the deliberation days will be as short as the court ‘days’ have been JMO

MOO

 

[notsure]

Anyone else feeling a bit sorry for the plumber? Been working there since the 80s, probably was cursing the place while dealing with a clogged sluicemaster and literal crap in the labour ward, thinking to himself “can this job get any worse?”, and the answer was yes, yes it does get worse, one day you’ll be testifying about this as the only witness for the defence in a baby murder trial. Poor guy.

And then getting your evidence slagged off as irrelevant by Websleuths forum members, lol.

 

[Parker Knoll]

I literally could not believe what I was reading earlier, just when you think this case cannot get anymore bizarre it does ! The one defence witness being the resident plumber who added basically nothing except that there had been issues in N1 but alternative hand washing facilities were provided at the time and half the incidents with plumbing had zero effect in the neonatal as it was a completely different ward affected did make me question BM as to why he used him at all. Ok it proved a TINY point that contrary to popular belief Letby was not lying about absolutely everything and she was telling the truth on this one occasion ( well half truth ) it’s still staggering.
I’m not going to guess on jury deliberation times ( 4 days )
I’m waiting for @Tortoise …. Far easier !

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I bet Myers could have crawled up his own backside ending on one witness ..a plumber where the prosecution shows some of the incidents didn't occur on the neonatal and it never led to the inability to wash hands

I'm not sure a defence lawyer would take it personally if their client has a relatively indefensible case?

JMO MOO

 

[Parker Knoll]

Anyone else getting Victoria Plumbing ads or just me ?!
Not joking btw !

 

[marynnu]

Anyone else feeling a bit sorry for the plumber? Been working there since the 80s, probably was cursing the place while dealing with a clogged sluicemaster and literal crap in the labour ward, thinking to himself “can this job get any worse?”, and the answer was yes, yes it does get worse, one day you’ll be testifying about this as the only witness for the defence in a baby murder trial. Poor guy.

He's famous now too. This must have been the weirdest day of his life.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Can anyone explain a reason why no expert witnesses have appeared for the defence ? I don't mean that as a stupid question. Is it down to the fact that no expert wished to be involved or what they said could easily be thrown into doubt?

I am gobsmacked !!!!!!!

Do we know when the closing speeches and the judges summing up will take place ?

They would have to argue against the statements and opinions already supplied by the prosecution. I guess firstly any professionals could decline the 'opportunity' to conflict with their fellow peers in a court of law and secondly, most importantly, they would have to have found flaws or points to argue against and if they can't take issue, then they can't hardly come to court and say well I've scrutinised the date and agree with the prosecution case.

 

[Tortoise]

Anyone else getting Victoria Plumbing ads or just me ?!
Not joking btw !

Yes me too

 

[Becky53]

In this episode Caroline and Liz explain what Lucy Letby said at the conclusion of her cross-examination.

They discuss the prosecution claims that she was out on the razzle, drinking with colleagues in the months before her arrest. And how it’s alleged that she’s a calculated murderer who killed babies for attention and sympathy.

Think I’ll save this to listen to tomorow and maybe recap on the others for extra time to drown out the dreaded shredder noise. It’s that time of year to be making paper, cardboard and woodshaving briquettes for winter warmth here in sunny Rossendale.

 

[Tortoise]

I still think it will be a good week or maybe even 2-3, possibly (but not likely) a month because these jurors will have been unable to talk about the evidence they’ve heard with anyone until they start deliberating. Can you imagine 12 people all wanting to get their thoughts heard after 8 months+ of being basically sworn to silence! I could imagine it taking atleast 3 days to just get everything off their chest, and if there’s one or more jurors who disagree with the rest then they’ll have to start looking at evidence because a lot was said during the prosecution case, BM cross examined majority of the witnesses so they’d have to weigh that up.

I think it’s possible either way even if they all agreed from the word go then they’d decide to look back at any important points. Judges sometimes discourage jurors from taking an immediate vote without discussing evidence first too. The Stauch trial comes to mind and it wasn’t a question of if she did it because she’d admitted it, sanity was the question at hand, it was obvious to pretty much everyone on the thread that she was sane, and deliberations went on for around 2 days when I thought it’d be a max of 3 hours!

We could be in for a long wait, jurors want to be seen to be giving it serious thought too. 8 months is an incredibly long trial, we’ve seen 2-3 week long trials not get a verdict for up to a week.
Or it could be a couple of days you just never know which way it could go. I’d guess around a week.. but we don’t know if the deliberation days will be as short as the court ‘days’ have been JMO

MOO

On the other hand, 8 months of evidence is 1/ a long time for them to have sat with the evidence and self-assessed their own comfort or discomfort with it, and 2/ the cumulative weight and impact of 8 months of evidence could be much greater than a case of one charge with 2 weeks' worth of evidence, again whichever way they are leaning. JMO

 

[Dotta]

How ironic that this disgusting case finishes with "raw sewage" on part of the Defence.

The final chuckle of "Fate".

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

Think I’ll save this to listen to tomorow and maybe recap on the others for extra time to drown out the dreaded shredder noise. It’s that time of year to be making paper, cardboard and woodshaving briquettes for winter warmth here in sunny Rossendale.

I don't think I picked up on anything new in this episode. I'm just glad to hear there will be another episode out on Monday with judge's legal directions, because I'm wondering if we're going to get much coverage in the media.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

So I have a theoretical question— if she is guilty, how do you think she planned her crimes? Was each attack premeditated (hypothetical—when waking up that day— “oh today I think I’ll try insulin and see what happens! ”) or were these impulsive acts carried out in the moment?

I’m having trouble wrapping my mind around this, only if she’s guilty and IMO.

If guilty, I'm gona say 'compulsive' is the word

I think anyone normal is going to struggle with that concept because it's beyond our comprehension, outside of our own thinking systems, and so taboo and sickening it doesn't bear even trying to understand, so there's a lot of internal resistance as well as really probably never going to get there.

Compulsive killers have an empathy deficit and emotional deficit which means they don't think of living beings with normal love, care, and compassion, they simply see them as objects and pawns in a system or game to be moved around or controlled in order to result in x y or z outcome.

IMO LL wanted to achieve various outcomes in order to gratify herself and the mechanism she used was the health and lives of babies.

When we first heard this news and the police were searching her house, digging the garden and pulling apart drainage pipes, I honestly believed she had been scapegoated for major hospital failings and it was all completely OTT doing that to her home. I think now we can see why that level of searching took place.

It's pretty terrifying. JMO MOO

 

[Tortoise]

How ironic that this disgusting case finishes with "raw sewage" on part of the Defence.

The final chuckle of "Fate".

JMO

I had the same thoughts. Could be seen as symbolic, depending on one's views of course.