VERDICT WATCH UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #29

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  • #361
My theory is that they've decided the murder cases already, but are sill discussing the attempted murders. I think they may struggle to get unanimous verdicts on some of those as they have to be sure of intent. Complete speculation on my part though!

The lack of a GBH option still concerns me. It means with the attempted murder charges IF the jury believe that she did deliberately harm the babies but aren't sure if she meant to kill them then they could only find her not guilty of attempted murder and she would face no charges at all for deliberately harming the babies. If guilty.

JMO
 
  • #362
I'm not sure what to say ...
 
  • #363
How can this help ? When it's been shown when the effects of the insulin "started"
 
  • #364
Would be easy to assume the cases Have been reviewed by the jury chronologically but might not be the case. Much has been said about just how important those cases are to the prosecutions case over all And it’s true. The jury may have looked at every other case other than those ones but yeh could also be true that they are doing it chronologically which might mean many more weeks to go.

interesting question from the jury as well. Does that mean they might doubt the evidence points conclusively to insulin poisoning at all?

It could mean that they're debating whether the insulin was even in all of the additional bags or whether the continued high blood sugar level could have been down to how long it took the levels to adjust back to normal after the source of insulin was removed/bag changed. JMO

ETA I'm not saying it IS a valid explanation for the continued high blood sugar. Just that that's why they might be asking.
 
  • #365
If I think about it positively, and try to stay optimistic, then maybe one or 2 jurors are unsure--and the rest are looking for a solid way to convince them to be onboard? Unfortunately, the judge had no solid evidence to point to....
 
  • #366
How can this help ? When it's been shown when the effects of the insulin "started"
It’s the second TPN bag issue.. the court heard testimony that the bag had been changed, and the blood sample was taken after the bag had changed.
 
  • #367
How can this help ? When it's been shown when the effects of the insulin "started"
Does it seem then that they do not get it, in medical terms?
 
  • #368
It’s the second TPN bag issue.. the court heard testimony that the bag had been changed, and the blood sample was taken after the bag had changed.
That's why I think too---they are trying to work out the timing on that.
 
  • #369
How can this help ? When it's been shown when the effects of the insulin "started"
Well if there is a start there should also be a finish, if the finish doesn’t correlate with disconnecting the source ie tpn bags then it’s not insulin causing the problem.

think I’m right there but guessing for sure.
 
  • #370
I’m really surprised at that question from the jury today. Baby F and L for me were 2 of the strongest cases. It has already been established that those 2 babies were poisoned with insulin IMO. The question seems to suggest that jurors are trying to work out the discrepancy about whether a second bag was poisoned, how blood glucose continued to fall whilst LL wasn’t on shift and possibly trying to rule out someone else having poisoned either or both babies.

It’s undisputed by the defence that these babies received synthetic insulin. It’s just a case of deciding if LL was the perpetrator IMO and establishing intent to kill, it would be known IMO by any nurse that administering insulin to a baby who’s blood glucose was already low would only cause the baby to deteriorate and likely die. IMO had the insulin been injected directly in one single dose the intent is slightly less obvious than what is alleged here. By poisoning the TPN bag, whoever did it knew that insulin would slowly and continuously drip into the child’s system throughout the day/night. One single dose given all at once would be more likely to successfully be rectified with dextrose than a slow and continuous administration over a period of hours. Each dextrose infusion would be counteracted by more insulin, leading to more likelihood of death.

Perhaps things are tense in the jury room with some jurors believing certain cases are solid and others believing the prosecution doesn’t have strong evidence. Baby F and L are 2 cases where we know harm was done intentionally to these babies. If they are only just debating the timings of blood glucose readings etc, perhaps they haven’t even moved onto intent to kill yet. I think it may be the first week in August before we see a verdict. I can’t see it being this week anyway.

All MOO
 
  • #371
It’s the second TPN bag issue.. the court heard testimony that the bag had been changed, and the blood sample was taken after the bag had changed.

I'm struggling with it because they don't have a "normal" c peptide ratio after the abnormal one to use ? If that makes sense
 
  • #372
I am not surprised at all. I felt there were glaring holes in the evidence of the insulin cases, with many loose strings left over. But I was hoping that the jury would have heard much more detail than we did. If they didn’t, I’m not surprised in this slightest they’re having to ask questions (and receiving answers that don’t help).
 
  • #373
I'm struggling with it because they don't have a "normal" c peptide ratio after the abnormal one to use ? If that makes sense
They’re trying to establish (I think) if those results would have been likely if only the original TPN bag was poisoned, and then a period of time elapsed before the blood test was taken. The thing they might be questioning is this alleged pre-emptive poisoning of a stock bag.
 
  • #374
They’re trying to establish (I think) if those results would have been likely if only the original TPN bag was poisoned, and then a period of time elapsed before the blood test was taken. The thing they might be questioning is this alleged pre-emptive poisoning of a stock bag.
That’s very good. Most viable explanation yet. 10/10 rather than esthers “16/20” :/
 
  • #375
Well if there is a start there should also be a finish, if the finish doesn’t correlate with disconnecting the source ie tpn bags then it’s not insulin causing the problem.

think I’m right there but guessing for sure.
It did correlate with it though. The blood readings for F returned to normal when the second bag was stopped.
 
  • #376
I don't understand the question at all. I thought both the prosecution and defence agreed that it was a deliberate act of poisoning and the jury were told by the judge to not play detective.

Concerning to say the least unless I am totally missing the point.
 
  • #377
I'm struggling with it because they don't have a "normal" c peptide ratio after the abnormal one to use ? If that makes sense
They do have the blood sugar readings though.
 
  • #378
To me unless they have multiple C peptide ratios to compare the information is of no use ...and obviously if it was the defence or prosecution would have used it.

The most important facts are imo

A when did the poisoning start
B who was on duty when it started

I think this is why the judge referred them back to the "abnormal" results in hope that helps
 
  • #379
The lack of a GBH option still concerns me. It means with the attempted murder charges IF the jury believe that she did deliberately harm the babies but aren't sure if she meant to kill them then they could only find her not guilty of attempted murder and she would face no charges at all for deliberately harming the babies. If guilty.

JMO
I wonder, if (hypothetically) the jury decide she is guilty of murder, could they use that to decide she more than likely intended to kill the victims she is charged with attempting to murder? In other words, if she’d already killed, is she more likely to be trying to kill the babies who survived as opposed to just seriously harming them instead?

I know the judge said the jury could use guilt in some cases to decide guilt in others. But I don’t know if that applies to deciding on intent to kill vs seriously harm.

All MOO and just an example…
 
  • #380
They’re trying to establish (I think) if those results would have been likely if only the original TPN bag was poisoned, and then a period of time elapsed before the blood test was taken. The thing they might be questioning is this alleged pre-emptive poisoning of a stock bag.

I see yes ...I do struggle with it though as someone did it and realistically only 2 people possibly did
 
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