VERDICT WATCH UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #29

[Dotta]

I think though the difference is, those of us here have discussed medical issues, testimony, have went round and round in circles on various topics, been researching information. We’ve went back again and again to review what was said and when (thanks tortoise), and personally I’ve been corrected more times than I care to admit when I’ve got things wrong or misremembered.

The jury have not been able to discuss things at all. They have not been allowed to take those iPads or notes home and review them. Every day they were listening to today’s testimony only, never getting a chance to review back on previous days, weeks, months.

It must be exceptionally hard for them. Such a long long time has passed. Especially when different things might stand out to each of them, different people remembering differing things.

I think they’d be able to sit together and discuss this for 6 months if they could.

Put it this way, I highly doubt any of them would be scoring 10/10 on Tortoise or Parker’s quizzes..

They work as a team.

They represent collective wisdom.

They examine the evidence carefully and thoroughly.

These 12 people consider 12 viewpoints and arguments, there is (allegedly) a wide variety of demographics, life experiences, and opinions.

Team work increases accuracy because there are more memories and notes on which to rely.

Social science studies support that 12-person juries are more likely to recall facts and trial testimony correctly.

As a group, they have good recall and are accurate, so they are likely to get the verdict right.

And if we as Internet posters are involved in this case, they surely are involved 100 times more than we are.

JMO

 

[marynnu]

Length of Deliberations Predictions (and backers!)

Mon 10th - day 1 (afternoon only) - 2pm to 4pm minus 5mins = 1h 55m
Tues 11th - day 2 - 4h 20m
Wed 12th - day 3 - 4h 20m
Thur 13th - day 4 - 4h 20m
Fri 14th - day 5 - 4h 20m
Mon 24th - day 6 - 4h 20m

Running total = 23h 35m


Still in the game -

23h 12m - @Dcflag
24h 10m - @Blondiexoxo
25h - @Sarahlou (backed by @Tortoise )
28h - @squish (backed by @katydid23 )
28h 28m - @DianaWW
30h 10m - @WaxLyrical
31h 30m - @Sweeper2000
32h 14m - @Kittybunny (backed by @marynnu )
34h - @bbsaz
35h 25m - @Dotta
41h 15m - @Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc
45h 10m - @esther43
58h - @Jw192
70h - @bobbymkii
75h - @CS2C
80h - @V347

I like your optimism Tortoise.

 

[esther43]

Right, for those of you who are hardcore enough, we have round 6 of the immense letby quiz incoming! arranged by @Tortoise, with bonus rounds so far offered by myself, @Dotta and @Parker Knoll. The running total so far:

Tortoise quiz (round 1/2.) - Winner - Esther
Dotta I-Spy (round 3) -Winner Esther
Esther- Blockbusters (round 4) -Winner Tortoise
Parker Knoll quiz (round 5) Winner ?
Esther- (round 6) quiz Winner ?

Answers tomorrow (lunch timeish)

Winner sets next task*

1.When Myers suggests that Dr Evans has just 'made up information as he has gone along'

How does Evans respond?

A)" That is incorrect"

B) "I am coming up with clinical evidence"

C) "That is for the jury to decide"

D)"You keep saying that, and I keep disagreeing."

2.How many Laughing emojis did letby send in response to the 'commando' comment?

A)1
B)3
C)4
D)5

3.According to WS posters, how was the shredder transported to court?

A) The transport team
B) NJ's legal team
C) Wheeled in
D)Drone delivery service

4.When did Myers refer to 'party games and 'russian dolls'?

A) Defence opening (pre-trial)
B) Introduction of the defence closing speech
C) End of defence closing speech
D) Never

5. What was the month and year of letby's third arrest?
A) June 2020
B) June 2021
C) Sept 2021
D) Nov 2020

6. What was the role of Kate Tyndell within the trial?

A) Senior nurse
B) Junior Dr
C) Urgent care lead
D) Intelligence analyst


7.When did Letby move into her home at Eastbourne rd?.
A) June 2016
B) Sept 2015
C)April 2016
D)Other

8.What colour was the paper of the post it note containing the word 'bergerac' ?
A) Blue
B) Yellow
C)White
D) Green

9. Letby sent a text saying she hoped post-mortem results could “get to the bottom of it” after which child

A) Child P
B) Child A
C) Child C
D) Child E

10.Who has been suspected to be a 'hostile witness' among the WS group?
A) Huw Maybury
B) Eraine Powell
C)Jennifer Jones Kay
D) Dr RJ

 

[Parker Knoll]

Answers to the quiz !

1. When Letby was originally arrested at her home and taken out of her house in her pyjamas ( Lee Cooper leisure suit ! ) which police station was she taken to ?

A) Chester Police Station
B) Blacon Police Station
C) Saltney Police Station

Answer B - Blacon Police Station

2. At Letbys very first appearance in the Magistrates on the 12/11/2020 after she was charged did she appear

A) In person at Chester Magistrates
B) In person at Liverpool Magistrates
C) Via video link to Warrington Magistrates

Answer C - Via video link to Warrington Magistrates

3. What is Letbys favourite chocolate bar even though she claims she doesn’t like it ?

A) Yorkie ( NOT for girls IYKYK )
B) Twix
C) Freddo

Answer C - Freddo


4. In Letbys kitchen she has a black chopping board, what shape is it ?

A) Whale
B) Owl
C) Pineapple

Answer A - Whale

5. What was one of Letbys favourite TV shows ?

A) Bergerac
B) Dexter
C) Love Island

Answer C - Love Island

6. What make of car did Letby drive ? ( when not borrowing Doc Chocs )

A) Honda Jazz
B) Mini Cooper
C) Suzuki Splash

Answer C - Suzuki Splash

7. Now we all know how much Letby loves Cockington but where was her dad offered a job when she was younger ?

A) Paignton
B) Torquay
C) Teignmouth

Answer A - Paignton

8. Where did Letby go for her salsa classes ?

A) Mold
B) Buckley
C) Both of the above

Answer C - Both of the above

9. When Letby was meeting Doc Choc in London ( They were just FRIENDS OK ! ) where did she say she was waiting for him in her text to him ?

A) Bus Stop
B) Near the park
C) At reception

Answer B - Near the park

10. When the mum of Baby E was giving her evidence in court what did Letby ask her to do ?

A) Calm down
B) Slow down
C) Speak up

Answer C - Speak up

11. Which supermarket did Letby buy the shredder from ( sorry … had to get it in somewhere ! )

A) Waitrose
B) Tesco
C) Asda

Answer C - Asda

12. How many times was Letby interviewed in total ?

A) 30
B) 21
C) 15

Answer A - 30


Winner is Tortoise with 10/12
@JosieJo 9/12
@katydid23 8/12
@Sweeper200 6/12
@Luwin 7/12
@DianaWW 7/12
@WaxLyrical 7/12
@Sweeper2000 6/12
@esther43 5/12
@Dotta 3/12

Same time next week ? ;-)

 

[Dotta]

Right, for those of you who are hardcore enough, we have round 6 of the immense letby quiz incoming! arranged by @Tortoise, with bonus rounds so far offered by myself, @Dotta and @Parker Knoll. The running total so far:

Tortoise quiz (round 1/2.) - Winner - Esther
Dotta I-Spy (round 3) -Winner Esther
Esther- Blockbusters (round 4) -Winner Tortoise
Parker Knoll quiz (round 5) Winner ?
Esther- (round 6) quiz Winner ?

Answers tomorrow (lunch timeish)

Winner sets next task*

1.When Myers suggests that Dr Evans has just 'made up information as he has gone along'

How does Evans respond?

A)" That is incorrect"

B) "I am coming up with clinical evidence"

C) "That is for the jury to decide"

D)"You keep saying that, and I keep disagreeing."

2.How many Laughing emojis did letby send in response to the 'commando' comment?

A)1
B)3
C)4
D)5

3.According to WS posters, how was the shredder transported to court?

A) The transport team
B) NJ's legal team
C) Wheeled in
D)Drone delivery service

4.When did Myers refer to 'party games and 'russian dolls'?

A) Defence opening (pre-trial)
B) Introduction of the defence closing speech
C) End of defence closing speech
D) Never

5. What was the month and year of letby's third arrest?
A) June 2020
B) June 2021
C) Sept 2021
D) Nov 2020

6. What was the role of Kate Tyndell within the trial?

A) Senior nurse
B) Junior Dr
C) Urgent care lead
D) Intelligence analyst


7.When did Letby move into her home at Eastbourne rd?.
A) June 2016
B) Sept 2015
C)April 2016
D)Other

8.What colour was the paper of the post it note containing the word 'bergerac' ?
A) Blue
B) Yellow
C)White
D) Green

9. Letby sent a text saying she hoped post-mortem results could “get to the bottom of it” after which child

A) Child P
B) Child A
C) Child C
D) Child E

10.Who has been suspected to be a 'hostile witness' among the WS group?
A) Huw Maybury
B) Eraine Powell
C)Jennifer Jones Kay
D) Dr RJ

These "Russian dolls" were so bizarre
What was it about?
Geez!

What did the author mean???

 

[Parker Knoll]

Right, for those of you who are hardcore enough, we have round 6 of the immense letby quiz incoming! arranged by @Tortoise, with bonus rounds so far offered by myself, @Dotta and @Parker Knoll. The running total so far:

Tortoise quiz (round 1/2.) - Winner - Esther
Dotta I-Spy (round 3) -Winner Esther
Esther- Blockbusters (round 4) -Winner Tortoise
Parker Knoll quiz (round 5) Winner ?
Esther- (round 6) quiz Winner ?

Answers tomorrow (lunch timeish)

Winner sets next task*

1.When Myers suggests that Dr Evans has just 'made up information as he has gone along'

How does Evans respond?

A)" That is incorrect"

B) "I am coming up with clinical evidence"

C) "That is for the jury to decide"

D)"You keep saying that, and I keep disagreeing."

Answer - D

2.How many Laughing emojis did letby send in response to the 'commando' comment?

A)1
B)3
C)4
D)5

Answer - B

3.According to WS posters, how was the shredder transported to court?

A) The transport team
B) NJ's legal team
C) Wheeled in
D)Drone delivery service

Answer B

4.When did Myers refer to 'party games and 'russian dolls'?

A) Defence opening (pre-trial)
B) Introduction of the defence closing speech
C) End of defence closing speech
D) Never

Answer C

5. What was the month and year of letby's third arrest?
A) June 2020
B) June 2021
C) Sept 2021
D) Nov 2020

Answer D

6. What was the role of Kate Tyndell within the trial?

A) Senior nurse
B) Junior Dr
C) Urgent care lead
D) Intelligence analyst

Answer - D


7.When did Letby move into her home at Eastbourne rd?.
A) June 2016
B) Sept 2015
C)April 2016
D)Other

Answer D ?!

8.What colour was the paper of the post it note containing the word 'bergerac' ?
A) Blue
B) Yellow
C)White
D) Green

Answer C

9. Letby sent a text saying she hoped post-mortem results could “get to the bottom of it” after which child

A) Child P
B) Child A
C) Child C
D) Child E

Answer A

10.Who has been suspected to be a 'hostile witness' among the WS group?
A) Huw Maybury
B) Eraine Powell
C)Jennifer Jones Kay
D) Dr RJ

Answer B

 

[JosieJo]

​

How does Evans respond?

A)" That is incorrect"

B) "I am coming up with clinical evidence"

C) "That is for the jury to decide"

D)"You keep saying that, and I keep disagreeing."

2.How many Laughing emojis did letby send in response to the 'commando' comment?

A)1
B)3
C)4
D)5

3.According to WS posters, how was the shredder transported to court?

A) The transport team
B) NJ's legal team
C) Wheeled in
D)Drone delivery service

4.When did Myers refer to 'party games and 'russian dolls'?

A) Defence opening (pre-trial)
B) Introduction of the defence closing speech x
C) End of defence closing speech
D) Never

5. What was the month and year of letby's third arrest?
A) June 2020
B) June 2021
C) Sept 2021
D) Nov 2020 X

6. What was the role of Kate Tyndell within the trial?

A) Senior nurse
B) Junior Dr
C) Urgent care lead
D) Intelligence analyst


7.When did Letby move into her home at Eastbourne rd?.
A) June 2016
B) Sept 2015
C)April 2016
D)Other

8.What colour was the paper of the post it note containing the word 'bergerac' ?
A) Blue
B) Yellow
C)White
D) Green

9. Letby sent the following text after which child?

A) Child P
B) Child I
C) Child C
D) Child E

10.Who has been suspected to be a 'hostile witness' among the WS group?
A) Huw Maybury
B) Eraine Powell
C)Jennifer Jones Kay
D) Dr RJ

 

[Dcflag]

But they have all relevant data with them - notes/documents/iPods.

They were sitting there listening to all witnesses/experts/Prosecution and Defence.

What else is needed?

They are discussing things, checking all angles to be sure beyond reasonable doubt.

Why would anybody on a forum think something is not clear to them?

So
Does it mean it is clear to ppl busy on Internet but not to those who devoted 9 months of their lives sitting in Court???

The public knows only fragments but the Jury knows all.

JMO

I mean, I disagree with this I think.

I’m quite happy to sit behind my screen and tell people what I think about the case, or whether I think she’s either guilty or not guilty, but it’s just my opinion. The case is complex and I base my opinions on lots of things that you couldn’t if you’re on a jury.

I’ve listened for months to the conversations in here, with the benefit of some really smart people giving really concise information that has helped me form my opinion. I’m motivated personally by a general interest in crime as a whole and this case individually.

Jurors are picked, they’re not true crime enthusiasts. They’re likely very ordinary people with ordinary interests struggling as much as the next lay person to really put this complex case into a form they can really feel comfortable understanding. Where my opinion is just that, theirs will either convict or acquit someone, that’s a huge burden on them to come to the right choice amongst themselves.

Imagine all of us navigating this case without the encyclopaedia that is tortoise, the medical point of view without Mary and the devils advocate without marantz and sweeper.

 

[ColourPurple]

Do you think it could be possible that LL's 5am reading (and interestingly the last reading of her shift) was entirely fabricated - to give everyone else false hope that the baby was getting better? And to deflect any suspicion on herself?

As in "Well, the baby was doing fine when I left, getting much better, look at the blood sugar readings!"

Yes I think that's exactly what the implication is (If guilty of course) ie record a false healthy blood sugar reading and then suggest not to test for a while because of how sore his heels are from testing and how much the blood sugar has improved... then let the insulin take effect while nobody is checking his blood sugar. If that's what happened he is so lucky that his blood sugar hadn't dropped even lower by the time they tested him at handover. JMO, if guilty etc.

 

[Kemug]

Plus, it would be an interesting exercise to check out the other nurse who could have tampered with the insulin bags, and note any events where he/she may have done something that could be deemed suspicious. Do we know the name of that other nurse?

 

[Supernovae]

Plus, it would be an interesting exercise to check out the other nurse who could have tampered with the insulin bags, and note any events where he/she may have done something that could be deemed suspicious. Do we know the name of that other nurse?

Belinda Simcock, but I'm not sure whether that's the full pool of people who had access to the bags, or just the people who were on shift when the hypoglycaemia manifested.

 

[Dotta]

I mean, I disagree with this I think.

I’m quite happy to sit behind my screen and tell people what I think about the case, or whether I think she’s either guilty or not guilty, but it’s just my opinion. The case is complex and I base my opinions on lots of things that you couldn’t if you’re on a jury.

I’ve listened for months to the conversations in here, with the benefit of some really smart people giving really concise information that has helped me form my opinion. I’m motivated personally by a general interest in crime as a whole and this case individually.

Jurors are picked, they’re not true crime enthusiasts. They’re likely very ordinary people with ordinary interests struggling as much as the next lay person to really put this complex case into a form they can really feel comfortable understanding. Where my opinion is just that, theirs will either convict or acquit someone, that’s a huge burden on them to come to the right choice amongst themselves.

Imagine all of us navigating this case without the encyclopaedia that is tortoise, the medical point of view without Mary and the devils advocate without marantz and sweeper.

But that is the very idea of the Jury -
ordinary people with ordinary interests
(not specialists), isn't it?

Does it mean the System is flawed?

IDK - in my country we have bench trials.

Are there many trials when the Jury got it wrong?

I think TRUST is crucial.
Either we believe in the system, or not.

I see no reason to mistrust these people and treat them in a patronizing way.

Everybody in Internet seems to be an "expert" these days.

I have no further comments on this particular subject.

My opinion has been made clear in many posts here.
I treat this Jury with respect which they deserve.

And whatever verdict they decide, I will respect it too.

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

Right, for those of you who are hardcore enough, we have round 6 of the immense letby quiz incoming! arranged by @Tortoise, with bonus rounds so far offered by myself, @Dotta and @Parker Knoll. The running total so far:

Tortoise quiz (round 1/2.) - Winner - Esther
Dotta I-Spy (round 3) -Winner Esther
Esther- Blockbusters (round 4) -Winner Tortoise
Parker Knoll quiz (round 5) Winner ?
Esther- (round 6) quiz Winner ?

Answers tomorrow (lunch timeish)

Winner sets next task*

1.When Myers suggests that Dr Evans has just 'made up information as he has gone along'

How does Evans respond?

A)" That is incorrect"

B) "I am coming up with clinical evidence"

C) "That is for the jury to decide"

D)"You keep saying that, and I keep disagreeing."

2.How many Laughing emojis did letby send in response to the 'commando' comment?

A)1
B)3
C)4
D)5

3.According to WS posters, how was the shredder transported to court?

A) The transport team
B) NJ's legal team
C) Wheeled in
D)Drone delivery service

4.When did Myers refer to 'party games and 'russian dolls'?

A) Defence opening (pre-trial)
B) Introduction of the defence closing speech
C) End of defence closing speech
D) Never

5. What was the month and year of letby's third arrest?
A) June 2020
B) June 2021
C) Sept 2021
D) Nov 2020

6. What was the role of Kate Tyndell within the trial?

A) Senior nurse
B) Junior Dr
C) Urgent care lead
D) Intelligence analyst


7.When did Letby move into her home at Eastbourne rd?.
A) June 2016
B) Sept 2015
C)April 2016
D)Other

8.What colour was the paper of the post it note containing the word 'bergerac' ?
A) Blue
B) Yellow
C)White
D) Green

9. Letby sent a text saying she hoped post-mortem results could “get to the bottom of it” after which child

A) Child P
B) Child A
C) Child C
D) Child E

10.Who has been suspected to be a 'hostile witness' among the WS group?
A) Huw Maybury
B) Eraine Powell
C)Jennifer Jones Kay
D) Dr RJ

Are these questions fair? Could have sworn q 1 has multiple correct answers?

 

[Tortoise]

dbm

 

[Tortoise]

Are these questions fair? Could have sworn q 1 has multiple correct answers?

I thought he said all of them but assumed the answer depends on what he was replying to.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Right, for those of you who are hardcore enough, we have round 6 of the immense letby quiz incoming! arranged by @Tortoise, with bonus rounds so far offered by myself, @Dotta and @Parker Knoll. The running total so far:

Tortoise quiz (round 1/2.) - Winner - Esther
Dotta I-Spy (round 3) -Winner Esther
Esther- Blockbusters (round 4) -Winner Tortoise
Parker Knoll quiz (round 5) Winner ?
Esther- (round 6) quiz Winner ?

Answers tomorrow (lunch timeish)

Winner sets next task*

1.When Myers suggests that Dr Evans has just 'made up information as he has gone along'

How does Evans respond?

A)" That is incorrect"

B) "I am coming up with clinical evidence"

C) "That is for the jury to decide"

D)"You keep saying that, and I keep disagreeing."

2.How many Laughing emojis did letby send in response to the 'commando' comment?

A)1
B)3
C)4
D)5

3.According to WS posters, how was the shredder transported to court?

A) The transport team
B) NJ's legal team
C) Wheeled in
D)Drone delivery service

4.When did Myers refer to 'party games and 'russian dolls'?

A) Defence opening (pre-trial)
B) Introduction of the defence closing speech
C) End of defence closing speech
D) Never

5. What was the month and year of letby's third arrest?
A) June 2020
B) June 2021
C) Sept 2021
D) Nov 2020

6. What was the role of Kate Tyndell within the trial?

A) Senior nurse
B) Junior Dr
C) Urgent care lead
D) Intelligence analyst


7.When did Letby move into her home at Eastbourne rd?.
A) June 2016
B) Sept 2015
C)April 2016
D)Other

8.What colour was the paper of the post it note containing the word 'bergerac' ?
A) Blue
B) Yellow
C)White
D) Green

9. Letby sent a text saying she hoped post-mortem results could “get to the bottom of it” after which child

A) Child P
B) Child A
C) Child C
D) Child E

10.Who has been suspected to be a 'hostile witness' among the WS group?
A) Huw Maybury
B) Eraine Powell
C)Jennifer Jones Kay
D) Dr RJ

Q1. D.
Q2. B.
Q3. C. I assume this question was more of a joke.
Q4. C.
Q5. A.
Q6. D.
Q7. A.
Q8. B.
Q9. A.
Q10. C.

 

[Tortoise]

I like your optimism Tortoise.

Noon today. Just sending the memo.

 

[MissMarbles]

Couldn’t agree more on the insulin, and nailing things down as forensically as possible.

If I were a juror, I’d need more than what they presented to feel truly comfortable. I would really struggle with the ‘finger in the air’ guesswork around how much insulin, when and where and how many bags, the ‘sticky’ insulin. I would need them to have at least tested running various levels of insulin through one of the machines, to get some clarity around how much sticks to the giving set etc. They presented evidence that 3 extra vials were ordered, but then suggested some minute amount like 0.1ml was needed to poison one of the babies. There’s just so much left to the imagination.

And the thing is, if I felt comfortable with the insulin charges, then as a juror I’d feel a thousand times more comfortable reaching verdicts on the other charges.

With regard to the second bag. My gut says the bag was never changed. But I struggle massively with that, because all that does is adds weight to the idea that this hospital was providing very low standards of care. For every nurse out there who says “I’d never accumulate 257 handover sheets”, they’d also be saying “I would never hook an old bag back up to a sick infant”. And if there was some kind of appropriate circumstance in which to do that, I would hope it would be agreed and recorded, not just done on the sly. If that old bag was put back up, it feels to me like it wasn’t the first time, that is wasn’t out of the ordinary. Which is horrifying.

I don't suppose anyone can remember who was present when new bags were hooked up - is it possible that someone present may have had the opportunity to DELIBERATELY rehang the old bag without anyone else noticing? And others present to assume it was a new bag? Just my opinion, if guilty, etc.

 

[Lincoln34]

My theory is that they've decided the murder cases already, but are sill discussing the attempted murders. I think they may struggle to get unanimous verdicts on some of those as they have to be sure of intent. Complete speculation on my part though!

Very true but can they not utilise similar fact evidence? If one attempt proven can they extrapolate to other cases?

 

[Sweeper2000]

I don't suppose anyone can remember who was present when new bags were hooked up - is it possible that someone present may have had the opportunity to DELIBERATELY rehang the old bag without anyone else noticing? And others present to assume it was a new bag? Just my opinion, if guilty, etc.

I don’t think this is accurate wording but I believe there was a collective word used to describe the process of changing or not changing the bag. Something like “we wouldn’t have hung up the old bag and if we did we would have documented it”. Was after mr Myers asked one nurse if they would or wouldn’t have.

“The nurse says she does not have an independent recollection of the event.

She confirms if the long line is tissued, it cannot be used again.

Mr Myers says if the long line is changed, then everything else is changed to avoid infection, including the TPN bag. The nurse confirms that would be the case.

Mr Myers: "You wouldn't put up an old [TPN] bag, would you?" “


The nurse: "I wouldn't, no. And we wouldn't have put it up as we would have documented that."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 24

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk