UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #3

[Dotta]

It isn't remotely the same situation. Not even close.

Yes, it is.

And it is called "Desecration of a corpse".

And there is a paragraph for this sickness.
In civilised countries.

Moo

 

[PoirotPink]

Her writings don't sound like they come from a cold-blooded killer. She is full of guilt and remorse, but that could be because she feels she wasn't good enough to save them.

This is not a comment on this case, but do cold-blooded killers sound a particular way? You might get a psychopath with no ability to feel or show emotion at one end of the scale, and a more malevolent personality who uses manipulation and emotional skills to gain trust and control others, at the other end. Both types of personality could well be capable of cold-blooded murder. Then there's the other way of looking at it which is, how would a cold-blooded killer react if they thought they were about to be caught?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

When the doctor asked her what was going on, she said the baby "just started deteriorating now."

She was interrupted before when an alarm went off and another nurse came in to find her standing by the incubator.

The alarm may have been turned off on this occasion so she wouldn't be interrupted. Imo

I guess it would help to have a very clear time line of these incidents

I find it hard to comprehend why someone wasn't instantly removed from duty pending investigation if the scenario described by the doctor happened how they say.

 

[PoirotPink]

No, not the same situation, but a similar happening. Employees in public employment should not be taking photos of the deceased.
The 2 police officers were sentenced to prison time, and if a nurse was on trial for the same thing, then I'm sure prison time would be sentenced too.

Even if you take away the fact that they were deceased. Is it in any way acceptible for medical staff to take photographs of patients? I would suggest that this alone would have serious repercussions on someone's career.

 

[smucklecrumble]

I guess it would help to have a very clear time line of these incidents

I find it hard to comprehend why someone wasn't instantly removed from duty pending investigation if the scenario described by the doctor happened how they say.

I’m starting to think it’s more of a hindsight thing.

 

[halibutjackson]

ok. so I read the whole note and believe this is what it says:

NOT GOOD ENERGY.

I am an awful person. I pay for that everyday.
I can't breathe. I can't focus.
Kill myself right now.
Overwhelming fear/panic. NO HOPE.
Ill never have children or marry. Ill never know what its like to have a family.
I have done nothing wrong.
Police investigation forget slander Discrimination victimisation.
All getting too much everything
Hate myself so much for what this has DESPAIR
Taking over my life everyone
I feel very alone + scared
What does the future hold
How can I get through it
How will things ever be like they were
PANIC FEAR LOST HATE
I DID THIS
WHY ME
I don't deserve to live May cry
I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough to care for them + I am a horrible evil
Killing me
I don't deserve mum + dad Tom + Matt
Whole world is better off without me
I AM EVIL I DID THIS


Apologies if any words are wrong/misinterpreted. All MOO

I got almost exactly the same - few additions etc. as follows. The only words I was less sure of were 'Tom + Matt'. It's interesting that the theme of being 'not good enough' is in the title and the 'confession' (as well as the two 'I DID THIS'):

NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

There are no words
I am an awful person - I pay everyday for that.
I can't breathe. I can't focus.
Kill myself right now.
Overwhelming fear/panic.
NO HOPE.
Ill never have children or marry. Ill never know what its like to have a family.
I haven’t done anything wrong.
Police investigation forget slander Discrimination victimisation.
All getting too much everything. Taking over my life everyone
Hate myself so much for what this has
DESPAIR
I feel very alone + scared
What does the future hold
How can I get through it
How will things ever be like they were used – they won’t
PANIC
FEAR
LOST
HATE
I DID THIS
WHY ME
I don't deserve to live May cry
I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough to care for them + I am a horrible evil person
Killing me
I don't deserve mum + dad Tom + Matt
Whole world is better off without me
I AM EVIL I DID THIS

 

[TheAnalyser]

Well. That’s rather surprising.

Hello this is my first post so apologies if i write anything not allowed.

Sometimes when you are constantly told and persecuted for something you are alleged to have done there is a chance your mental status could play a trick on you and you could start to believe you did what you are alleged to have done - even though you are innocent. Lets all remember how long LL has been on remand and prior to being on remand the multiple times she was interviewed by the police.

LL has had this ordeal to contend with for a significant amount of time. Sadly there are a lot of people that rather than wait for the facts to be detailed in court and the court to decide if guilty or not they decide LL is guilty. All this then plays on LL's mental health.

Where was the note found? Was it whilst she was on remand? LL's mental health must feel like its been tortured. Since she was arrested and alleged to have done these crimes her name and her parents details has been on public view. <modsnip: Opinions regarding guilt or innocence are violations of sub judice>

It is a very sad case and i do (of course) feel for the parents. <modsnip: Opinions regarding guilt or innocence are violations of sub judice>

<modsnip: Disaparaging officers of the court is a violation of sub judice>

 

[TheAnalyser]

It is baffling to me that she was still texting colleagues to say she had done nothing wrong and was upset with the admin move, instead of being reflective and understand that with so many deaths/almost fatalities it was to be expected she'd be reviewed. That's just normal performance reviews and management in any profession. If a police officer kills one person, they know they'll be reviewed even in it's all clear at the end. Why would she not expect to be reviewed at some point???

That level of arrogance and callousness about her own performance is really distasteful.

Oh it would be a different world if we were all so perfect - we are all human and make mistakes.

 

[JosieJo]

2.8. Legal Matters and Complaints Nursing & midwifery records, diaries, birth plans and anything that makes reference to the care of the patient or client may be required as evidence to investigate a complaint, adverse or criminal incident or by the NMC Fitness to Practice Committee. In negligence and malpractice law, the nursing records would be used as the most reliable source of evidence regarding quality of nursing care delivered. It is a part of the Health Record which is used as legal evidence of treatment. As often a significant period of time has passed and an individual’s recall may not be as dependable, accurate record keeping may protect against a lawsuit (Dimmond 2011).

Handover sheets are not kept or part of patients notes.
They are just printed out each shift basically a list of names on your ward and then at handover you use it to document anything you need to know ..for example if nil by mouth or going home etc
Yes they are confidential and should be put in the confidential waste bin at the end of shift
Sometimes you forget
The only time you may get disciplinary action if you leave it accidentally in a public place and reported

 

[Kinderbelle]

2.8. Legal Matters and Complaints Nursing & midwifery records, diaries, birth plans and anything that makes reference to the care of the patient or client may be required as evidence to investigate a complaint, adverse or criminal incident or by the NMC Fitness to Practice Committee. In negligence and malpractice law, the nursing records would be used as the most reliable source of evidence regarding quality of nursing care delivered. It is a part of the Health Record which is used as legal evidence of treatment. As often a significant period of time has passed and an individual’s recall may not be as dependable, accurate record keeping may protect against a lawsuit (Dimmond 2011).

Again, I am very familiar with these policies. I also worked on the wards for a significant time during my NHS career and people leave with handovers in their pockets all. the. time. I could not count how many people have come in the next day and been seen sheepishly sticking them in the confidential waste, eyeing the ward for the Matron or Manager lest they get caught. Policy doesn't change that.

What might be useful to know is that original handover documents that are available on EPR computer systems. They are updated by senior nursing staff toward the end of the shift then a number of them are printed off to be given to the staff on the next shift (of which there are a significant number. For example, a nursing team of 5-6 nurses and 12 nursing assistants, 2-3 senior nurses, 1-2 ward managers, that's already 22 paper copies of thise handovers without counting doctors or therapy staff). All of these staff write their own individual notes on them in pen during a handover, which is why you write your name on it (that and on the off chance they are found in the street they know who to blame).

That is what those policies refer to as part of audits and evidence, the original document. If the paper copy Nurse Sarah has with all her scribbles on is taken with her or put in the confidential waste then there is very little chance of it being evidence. In this case LL had a copy at home so it CAN be submitted, but how many more did she take and look at before getting rid of them at home?

 

[PoirotPink]

I’m starting to think it’s more of a hindsight thing.

Maybe. Because "that nurse was trying to kill a patient" isn't the first thought that would spring to mind. As the witness, you would have a lot of self-doubt about what you think you saw and may even kid yourself that you imagined it. It's only when a lot of people come forward with similar stories that you realise you had also witnessed something.

 

[Taskforce88]

"Ill never have children or marry. Ill never know what its like to have a family."

Significant.

Wasnt this brought up before as a motive when she was first in court?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

As bad is this is, I honestly believe it’s because she looks like butter wouldn’t melt, no way in this world would you look at this girl and even think for a second that she’s capable of what she’s in court for. I’d say it just went on to a point where it was blindly obvious and then everything fell into place, all those deaths, all very similar, all when she was on shift.

If I was the doctor, I wouldn't think those sort of things because they're outside of every day comprehension -but- I would certainly think this person is making errors that are going to cost a baby's life and that needs to be instantly confronted. I would want to immediately know - why isn't the alarm on? how did this air tube become detached? why are you just standing there doing nothing!

 

[smucklecrumble]

Hello this is my first post so apologies if i write anything not allowed.

Sometimes when you are constantly told and persecuted for something you are alleged to have done there is a chance your mental status could play a trick on you and you could start to believe you did what you are alleged to have done - even though you are innocent. Lets all remember how long LL has been on remand and prior to being on remand the multiple times she was interviewed by the police.

LL has had this ordeal to contend with for a significant amount of time. Sadly there are a lot of people that rather than wait for the facts to be detailed in court and the court to decide if guilty or not they decide LL is guilty. All this then plays on LL's mental health.

Where was the note found? Was it whilst she was on remand? LL's mental health must feel like its been tortured. Since she was arrested and alleged to have done these crimes her name and her parents details has been on public view. <modsnip: Opinions regarding guilt or innocence are violations of sub judice>

It is a very sad case and i do (of course) feel for the parents. <modsnip: Opinions regarding guilt or innocence are violations of sub judice>

<modsnip: Disaparaging officers of the court is a violation of sub judice>

Thanks. I looked again and i think the May cry bit actually says May admit I Did this

 

[Konstantin]

"Ill never have children or marry. Ill never know what its like to have a family."

Significant.

Wasnt this brought up before as a motive when she was first in court?

Do you mean it was alleged that she believed that about herself before she was suspected/arrested?

 

[Powermjp]

Hello this is my first post so apologies if i write anything not allowed.

Sometimes when you are constantly told and persecuted for something you are alleged to have done there is a chance your mental status could play a trick on you and you could start to believe you did what you are alleged to have done - even though you are innocent. Lets all remember how long LL has been on remand and prior to being on remand the multiple times she was interviewed by the police.

LL has had this ordeal to contend with for a significant amount of time. Sadly there are a lot of people that rather than wait for the facts to be detailed in court and the court to decide if guilty or not they decide LL is guilty. All this then plays on LL's mental health.

Where was the note found? Was it whilst she was on remand? LL's mental health must feel like its been tortured. Since she was arrested and alleged to have done these crimes her name and her parents details has been on public view. <modsnip: Opinions regarding guilt or innocence are violations of sub judice>

It is a very sad case and i do (of course) feel for the parents. <modsnip: Opinions regarding guilt or innocence are violations of sub judice>

<modsnip: Disaparaging officers of the court is a violation of sub judice>

I don't think she was persecuted. From reading the time line first they changed her to day time.

Then they put her on clerical duties. And let the police investigate.

And then she was arrested.

The hospital have actually been criticised for acting too slow.


How else can you potentially investigate a suspect of such a serious crime?

Every single suspect of a crime in the country goes through this system this way I don't see how it's different. The NHS and police have had a really difficult job in this case.

 

[LondonMama]

Hello all, I am new to posting but I have read here for a long time. It is very nice to see the balanced discussion.

I am a scribbler. The note is the vague shape of something I could’ve written myself at very desperate times in my life. Especially if I had ended up drinking too much. When she says “I did this” I wonder if she means something closer to a self-critical ‘this is all of my own making’

I’m worried about how sustainable this extremely long case is going to be, especially in light of the jurors already dropping out.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

"Ill never have children or marry. Ill never know what its like to have a family."

Significant.

Wasnt this brought up before as a motive when she was first in court?

Because it's not motive, it's despair at realising your life is destroyed and the future is done.

 

[notsure]

Hello all, I am new to posting but I have read here for a long time. It is very nice to see the balanced discussion.

I am a scribbler. The note is the vague shape of something I could’ve written myself at very desperate times in my life. Especially if I had ended up drinking too much. When she says “I did this” I wonder if she means something closer to a self-critical ‘this is all of my own making’

I’m worried about how sustainable this extremely long case is going to be, especially in light of the jurors already dropping out.

Hi there! I also tend to write stuff down, and I did this an awful lot when I was in my 20s and trying to work things out. My literary ramblings could be quite dramatic at times!

 

[PoirotPink]

I am not a legal expert but have been involved with cases where the police made huge mistakes and when the trial got to court the Prosecution had to be seen to get a result for the public purse noting the value the case had cost, the public purse.

I agree that there are miscarriages of justice, but one thing this case has is the NHS computerised records system which provides for an authentic paper trail of evidence. It's not just the police conducting an investigation and choosing their own lines of enquiry in order to gather evidence, with the risk of confirmation bias and the wrong suspect. In one respect the main body of evidence in this was already collated before police involvement.