VERDICT WATCH UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #30

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The jury was sent home for the weekend at 4pm on Friday, August 4, with the jury having deliberated for more than 71 hours.

The 11 jurors are expected to resume deliberations on Tuesday, August 8, with the judge telling the jury that, "for good reason", the court cannot sit on Monday.


I suppose one of the jurors could have been dismissed if she was due to give birth. The trial has been going on long enough for a full gestation.
 
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Sending out positive thoughts for verdicts to be reached next week on at least most of the charges. It doesn't need to be said that the idea of having to completely retry all of these charges is horrific.

My heart goes out to all of the parents and relatives waiting for the verdicts.
 
Length of Deliberations Predictions

Jul
Mon 10th - day 1 (afternoon only) - 2pm to 4pm minus 5mins = 1h 55m
Tue 11th - day 2 - 4h 20m
Wed 12th - day 3 - 4h 20m
Thu 13th - day 4 - 4h 20m
Fri 14th - day 5 - 4h 20m
Mon 24th - day 6 - 4h 20m
Tue 25th - day 7 - 4h 20m
Wed 26th - day 8 - 4h 15m
Thu 27th - day 9 - 4h 20m
Fri 28th - day 10 - 3h 50m (12pm - 4pm minus 2x 5 min breaks)
Aug
Tue 1st - day 11 - 4h 10m
Wed 2nd - day 12 - 4h 20m
Thu 3rd - day 13 - 4h 10m
Fri 4th - day 14 - 4h 15m

Running total = 57h 15m


Still in the game -

58h - @Jw192 (backed by @Sarahlou and @Tortoise )
70h - @bobbymkii (backed by @Dotta and @marynnu )
75h - @CS2C (backed by @Kittybunny , @DianaWW , @Diddly1 and @Parker Knoll )
80h - @V347 (backed by @crystalline )
 
I've had a thought...wonder if the dismissed juror is getting married today or tomorrow. Would explain why the other jurors thought it would be off next week and also explain the "this was inevitable" comment. And also the comment about no contact between them (eg no wedding pics!). It is wedding season after all and in Oct she would have thought this would long be over by now
 
I'm at sea.. I knew I wouldn't be able to follow such a long winded case..
How powerful was prosecution evidence? just generally?
i only read a post a week I think..

Extra long post incoming :oops: ….

NJ’s cross examination of LL and his closing statement were some of the most powerful parts IMO of the entire trial. The actual evidence stage IMO came across as a little complicated at times and didn’t have the ‘wow factor’ for me but that’s most likely due to having to rely on updates and those updates likely weren’t relaying the actual spoken words, we couldn’t hear the tone in which witnesses answered questions on the stand, we couldn’t see their body language etc so couldn’t tell how each witness came across either.

Because of how long the prosecutions case went on for, plus the delays for public holidays, absences etc.. it might have lost momentum at times IMO. Some of the most powerful evidence I recall was the medical experts for the prosecution. The testimony about TPN bags, insulin c peptide, how medical equipment works etc I found hard to grasp and IMO some jurors may have too since their question about the insulin c peptide.

I recall one medical expert (may have been Dr Evans but I’m not 100%) under cross examination when BM was suggesting alternative causes for collapse and trying to get the expert to admit there were other possible causes, the expert answered with ‘it’s possible, but not probable’ that answer has stuck with me ever since and it’s the way I look at the whole case now. I don’t know if it was a powerful moment in court but for me just reading the update it had an impact on me. IMO it was a moment (only JMO) that I thought back to when all the links that LL claims were ‘coincidences’ were being mentioned in court. When BM was making his closing speech saying ‘the experts admitted this was a possibility’ I kept coming back to that quote ‘possible but not probable’.

I remember the reporting being very hit and miss around the middle of the prosecution case, and recall thinking that the evidence for a few charges, namely baby H was patchy and not very solid. However, when NJ delivered his magnificent closing speech he showed IMO that some of the charges I were initially unsure on were some of the most solid, JMO. He built the puzzle piece by piece, demonstrated the links and similarities between cases perfectly and then tied the entire case together with a big bow on top. That was when I went from thinking deliberations might take 3-4 weeks+ to thinking verdicts may be reached in as little as a week. Then with the lack of defence witnesses (minus the plumber) and when the judge gave his summing up and gave the jury instructions it solidified my opinion that verdicts could be quicker than I initially thought.

Clearly I was wrong and now I’m wondering if there were parts of the cross examination of prosecution witnesses that raised doubt for some jurors. But I think it’s very easy to get sucked into the smaller details, like with the c peptide question. A lot of it comes down to whether the jury believe the prosecution witness or LL, when there are 2 conflicting statements they have been told to weigh up who is most likely to be telling the truth. E.g the situation with baby E’s mum.. who should they believe, the mother of an allegedly murdered child, or LL who was shown to have changed her story and twisted the truth about some very small things and as she herself admitted ‘cannot recall’ many events. And whether they can be convinced that it is more likely that all of these coincidences were nothing more than unfortunate innocent things that occurred to an innocent LL, who merely forgot a few things and suddenly remembered them on the stand.

Which is more probable? Is all the jury have to first decide, once they can agree on that, IMO the decision for each charge becomes easier. Yes, there are many possibilities. A masked intruder could have spiked TPN bags with insulin, babies bleeding could have been caused by intubation or NG tubes, some of the babies could have been vulnerable and had other medical problems caused by prematurity, LL could have been searching up parents randomly because they were on her mind for some reason, she could have been so unlucky that she was the only staff member present for every single suspicious collapse.

But when considered as a whole, together with everything we know now. Is it probable that a masked intruder poisoned babies with insulin on 2 seperate occasions, that babies who were otherwise doing well collapsed and died/almost died around the time LL was searching up their parents on Facebook and taking home handover notes, all while LL was on shift? And that’s without even touching on the Air Embolism, the special interest she showed in babies texting about them when she wasn’t even on shift, notes allegedly being falsified, over feeding, twins randomly collapsing within 24 hours of eachother, predicting ‘he’s not leaving here alive is he?’, plus much much more.

Is all of that probable? Or simply possible? Has all of that just happened by chance and somehow randomly linked LL in one way or another to every single baby’s collapse/death? Or is she a serial killer?

All MOO and JMO!
Sorry I went way off on a tangent that wasn’t even part of your question!
 
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Extra long post incoming :oops: ….

NJ’s cross examination of LL and his closing statement were some of the most powerful parts IMO of the entire trial. The actual evidence stage IMO came across as a little complicated at times and didn’t have the ‘wow factor’ for me but that’s most likely due to having to rely on updates and those updates likely weren’t relaying the actual spoken words, we couldn’t hear the tone in which witnesses answered questions on the stand, we couldn’t see their body language etc so couldn’t tell how each witness came across either.

Because of how long the prosecutions case went on for, plus the delays for public holidays, absences etc.. it might have lost momentum at times IMO. Some of the most powerful evidence I recall was the medical experts for the prosecution. The testimony about TPN bags, insulin c peptide, how medical equipment works etc I found hard to grasp and IMO some jurors may have too since their question about the insulin c peptide.

I recall one medical expert (may have been Dr Evans but I’m not 100%) under cross examination when BM was suggesting alternative causes for collapse and trying to get the expert to admit there were other possible causes, the expert answered with ‘it’s possible, but not probable’ that answer has stuck with me ever since and it’s the way I look at the whole case now. I don’t know if it was a powerful moment in court but for me just reading the update it had an impact on me. IMO it was a moment (only JMO) that I thought back to when all the links that LL claims were ‘coincidences’ were being mentioned in court. When BM was making his closing speech saying ‘the experts admitted this was a possibility’ I kept coming back to that quote ‘possible but not probable’.

I remember the reporting being very hit and miss around the middle of the prosecution case, and recall thinking that the evidence for a few charges, namely baby H was patchy and not very solid. However, when NJ delivered his magnificent closing speech he showed IMO that some of the charges I were initially unsure on were some of the most solid, JMO. He built the puzzle piece by piece, demonstrated the links and similarities between cases perfectly and then tied the entire case together with a big bow on top. That was when I went from thinking deliberations might take 3-4 weeks+ to thinking verdicts may be reached in as little as a week. Then when the judge gave his summing up and gave the jury instructions it solidified my opinion that verdicts could be quicker than I initially thought.

Clearly I was wrong and now I’m wondering if there were parts of the cross examination of prosecution witnesses that raised doubt for some jurors. But I think it’s very easy to get sucked into the smaller details, like with the c peptide question. A lot of it comes down to whether the jury believe the prosecution witness or LL, when there are 2 conflicting statements they have been told to weigh up who is most likely to be telling the truth. E.g the situation with baby E’s mum.. who should they believe, the mother of an allegedly murdered child, or LL who was shown to have changed her story and twisted the truth about some very small things and as she herself admitted ‘cannot recall’ many events. And whether they can be convinced that it is more likely that all of these coincidences were nothing more than unfortunate innocent things that occurred to an innocent LL, who merely forgot a few things and suddenly remembered them on the stand.

Which is more probable? Is all the jury have to first decide, once they can agree on that, IMO the decision for each charge becomes easier. Yes, there are many possibilities. A masked intruder could have spiked TPN bags with insulin, babies bleeding could have been caused by intubation or NG tubes, some of the babies could have been vulnerable and had other medical problems caused by prematurity, LL could have been searching up parents randomly because they were on her mind for some reason, she could have been so unlucky that she was the only staff member present for every single suspicious collapse.

But when considered as a whole, together with everything we know now. Is it probable that a masked intruder poisoned babies with insulin on 2 seperate occasions, that babies who were otherwise doing well collapsed and died/almost died around the time LL was searching up their parents on Facebook and taking home handover notes, all while LL was on shift? And that’s without even touching on the Air Embolism, the special interest she showed in babies texting about them when she wasn’t even on shift, notes allegedly being falsified, over feeding, twins randomly collapsing within 24 hours of eachother, predicting ‘he’s not leaving here alive is he?’, plus much much more.

Is all of that probable? Or simply possible? Has all of that just happened by chance and somehow randomly linked LL in one way or another to every single baby’s collapse/death? Or is she a serial killer?

All MOO and JMO!
Sorry I went way off on a tangent that wasn’t even part of your question!
Thank you.
I'm a nurse and was glued to it for the first few months but I knew I wouldn't go the distance unless they separated each trial, judged it and sentenced it before moving on to the next..

Multitasking defeats me.
 
Extra long post incoming :oops: ….

NJ’s cross examination of LL and his closing statement were some of the most powerful parts IMO of the entire trial. The actual evidence stage IMO came across as a little complicated at times and didn’t have the ‘wow factor’ for me but that’s most likely due to having to rely on updates and those updates likely weren’t relaying the actual spoken words, we couldn’t hear the tone in which witnesses answered questions on the stand, we couldn’t see their body language etc so couldn’t tell how each witness came across either.

Because of how long the prosecutions case went on for, plus the delays for public holidays, absences etc.. it might have lost momentum at times IMO. Some of the most powerful evidence I recall was the medical experts for the prosecution. The testimony about TPN bags, insulin c peptide, how medical equipment works etc I found hard to grasp and IMO some jurors may have too since their question about the insulin c peptide.

I recall one medical expert (may have been Dr Evans but I’m not 100%) under cross examination when BM was suggesting alternative causes for collapse and trying to get the expert to admit there were other possible causes, the expert answered with ‘it’s possible, but not probable’ that answer has stuck with me ever since and it’s the way I look at the whole case now. I don’t know if it was a powerful moment in court but for me just reading the update it had an impact on me. IMO it was a moment (only JMO) that I thought back to when all the links that LL claims were ‘coincidences’ were being mentioned in court. When BM was making his closing speech saying ‘the experts admitted this was a possibility’ I kept coming back to that quote ‘possible but not probable’.

I remember the reporting being very hit and miss around the middle of the prosecution case, and recall thinking that the evidence for a few charges, namely baby H was patchy and not very solid. However, when NJ delivered his magnificent closing speech he showed IMO that some of the charges I were initially unsure on were some of the most solid, JMO. He built the puzzle piece by piece, demonstrated the links and similarities between cases perfectly and then tied the entire case together with a big bow on top. That was when I went from thinking deliberations might take 3-4 weeks+ to thinking verdicts may be reached in as little as a week. Then with the lack of defence witnesses (minus the plumber) and when the judge gave his summing up and gave the jury instructions it solidified my opinion that verdicts could be quicker than I initially thought.

Clearly I was wrong and now I’m wondering if there were parts of the cross examination of prosecution witnesses that raised doubt for some jurors. But I think it’s very easy to get sucked into the smaller details, like with the c peptide question. A lot of it comes down to whether the jury believe the prosecution witness or LL, when there are 2 conflicting statements they have been told to weigh up who is most likely to be telling the truth. E.g the situation with baby E’s mum.. who should they believe, the mother of an allegedly murdered child, or LL who was shown to have changed her story and twisted the truth about some very small things and as she herself admitted ‘cannot recall’ many events. And whether they can be convinced that it is more likely that all of these coincidences were nothing more than unfortunate innocent things that occurred to an innocent LL, who merely forgot a few things and suddenly remembered them on the stand.

Which is more probable? Is all the jury have to first decide, once they can agree on that, IMO the decision for each charge becomes easier. Yes, there are many possibilities. A masked intruder could have spiked TPN bags with insulin, babies bleeding could have been caused by intubation or NG tubes, some of the babies could have been vulnerable and had other medical problems caused by prematurity, LL could have been searching up parents randomly because they were on her mind for some reason, she could have been so unlucky that she was the only staff member present for every single suspicious collapse.

But when considered as a whole, together with everything we know now. Is it probable that a masked intruder poisoned babies with insulin on 2 seperate occasions, that babies who were otherwise doing well collapsed and died/almost died around the time LL was searching up their parents on Facebook and taking home handover notes, all while LL was on shift? And that’s without even touching on the Air Embolism, the special interest she showed in babies texting about them when she wasn’t even on shift, notes allegedly being falsified, over feeding, twins randomly collapsing within 24 hours of eachother, predicting ‘he’s not leaving here alive is he?’, plus much much more.

Is all of that probable? Or simply possible? Has all of that just happened by chance and somehow randomly linked LL in one way or another to every single baby’s collapse/death? Or is she a serial killer?

All MOO and JMO!
Sorry I went way off on a tangent that wasn’t even part of your question!
I know it was joked about at the time, and its relevance questioned, but for me the plumber’s testimony was an absolute bombshell. The idea that raw sewage coming from sick hospital patients can be in the walls/cavities and sometimes even find itself in the units themselves is beyond belief. Not only that, but it appeared to have been somewhat suppressed, with major incidents going unrecorded by the hospital. To me, the idea that this was going on and had no impact on anything whatsoever, all those vulnerable patients, all those women in labour, feels so incredibly unlikely. It took until the end of the trial for them to even accept (and disregard) that it actually happened. It’s astounding.

Any person with a baby would run from the smell of sewer gas. Because as humans we instinctively know the risk that sewage poses, and hospital sewage is orders of magnitude more risky.

If I was on this jury, with the fate of someone in my hands, questioning whether these babies received adequate care, or if they were murdered, learning this would make me question everything I’d heard about how reliable the hospital, its witnesses, and its records truly are. How much it truly cares about the care it provides. This revelation would have rocked to the core any previous strong conviction I felt up to that point.
 
I know it was joked about at the time, and its relevance questioned, but for me the plumber’s testimony was an absolute bombshell. The idea that raw sewage coming from sick hospital patients can be in the walls/cavities and sometimes even find itself in the units themselves is beyond belief. Not only that, but it appeared to have been somewhat suppressed, with major incidents going unrecorded by the hospital. To me, the idea that this was going on and had no impact on anything whatsoever, all those vulnerable patients, all those women in labour, feels so incredibly unlikely. It took until the end of the trial for them to even accept (and disregard) that it actually happened. It’s astounding.

Any person with a baby would run from the smell of sewer gas. Because as humans we instinctively know the risk that sewage poses, and hospital sewage is orders of magnitude more risky.

If I was on this jury, with the fate of someone in my hands, questioning whether these babies received adequate care, or if they were murdered, learning this would make me question everything I’d heard about how reliable the hospital, its witnesses, and its records truly are. How much it truly cares about the care it provides. This revelation would have rocked to the core any previous strong conviction I felt up to that Th

they do actually clean units like this, very carefully at that whether the germs are seen or invisible.
It's just basics in healthcare.
 
I know it was joked about at the time, and its relevance questioned, but for me the plumber’s testimony was an absolute bombshell. The idea that raw sewage coming from sick hospital patients can be in the walls/cavities and sometimes even find itself in the units themselves is beyond belief. Not only that, but it appeared to have been somewhat suppressed, with major incidents going unrecorded by the hospital. To me, the idea that this was going on and had no impact on anything whatsoever, all those vulnerable patients, all those women in labour, feels so incredibly unlikely. It took until the end of the trial for them to even accept (and disregard) that it actually happened. It’s astounding.

Any person with a baby would run from the smell of sewer gas. Because as humans we instinctively know the risk that sewage poses, and hospital sewage is orders of magnitude more risky.

If I was on this jury, with the fate of someone in my hands, questioning whether these babies received adequate care, or if they were murdered, learning this would make me question everything I’d heard about how reliable the hospital, its witnesses, and its records truly are. How much it truly cares about the care it provides. This revelation would have rocked to the core any previous strong conviction I felt up to that point.
That plumbing issue did not shock me that much. My uncle was a plumber and had some similar stories concerning old industrial/commercial buildings.

I don't think it proved a lack of caring on the hospital's part, more like a lack of government funding.

And there was no evidence that ANY of the babies in this case were impacted in any way by the incidents the plumber reported.

Very old pipes crack, fail, back up, get misdirected, spurt and implode all the time. It is the hazard that comes with large old buildings getting a lot of usage. No reason to let an alleged serial killer to walk because of run of the mill plumbing problems, imo
 
That plumbing issue did not shock me that much. My uncle was a plumber and had some similar stories concerning old industrial/commercial buildings.

I don't think it proved a lack of caring on the hospital's part, more like a lack of government funding.

And there was no evidence that ANY of the babies in this case were impacted in any way by the incidents the plumber reported.

Very old pipes crack, fail, back up, get misdirected, spurt and implode all the time. It is the hazard that comes with large old buildings getting a lot of usage. No reason to let an alleged serial killer to walk because of run of the mill plumbing problems, imo
I suppose different people view it differently. From my perspective, requiring a plumber weekly throughout the relevant period of 2015-16 to deal with blockages that cause waste and sewage to back up into the basins, toilets, and drains, as well as instances of pipes bursting and releasing sewage into the atmosphere means it’s not an environment that intensive care or high dependency premature babies should be living in. It’s not an old factory, it’s a hospital, where the waste is radioactive, full of antibiotics etc. I just can’t seem to dismiss this as easily as other people can.

They let it go on for a year.
 
I suppose different people view it differently. From my perspective, requiring a plumber weekly throughout the relevant period of 2015-16 to deal with blockages that cause waste and sewage to back up into the basins, toilets, and drains, as well as instances of pipes bursting and releasing sewage into the atmosphere means it’s not an environment that intensive care or high dependency premature babies should be living in. It’s not an old factory, it’s a hospital, where the waste is radioactive, full of antibiotics etc. I just can’t seem to dismiss this as easily as other people can.

They let it go on for a year.
The reason I was not shocked is because my uncle told me that old hospitals were a nightmare for plumbing issues. So many rooms with so many different things going on. So much wear and tear on shoe string budgets. '

Hospitals have so many sinks, so many bathrooms, showers, operating rooms, treatment rooms and so many people moving through them,, 24/7.

You say they let it go on'---but what can be done other than having the plumber there trying to fix things?

They could tear the place down and build a brand new hospital of course. But what are the chances of that happening to every old hospital?

None of the babies in this case died because of plumbing back ups. So it is a red herring that Meyers tried to use as a deflection.
 
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I suppose different people view it differently. From my perspective, requiring a plumber weekly throughout the relevant period of 2015-16 to deal with blockages that cause waste and sewage to back up into the basins, toilets, and drains, as well as instances of pipes bursting and releasing sewage into the atmosphere means it’s not an environment that intensive care or high dependency premature babies should be living in. It’s not an old factory, it’s a hospital, where the waste is radioactive, full of antibiotics etc. I just can’t seem to dismiss this as easily as other people can.

They let it go on for a year.

I agree with you, it's shocking.

However, the types of illnesses that arise from insanitary premises are seemingly not related to what ended the lives of the poor babies.

Now I'm starting to wonder if LL is guilty, was she also maliciously putting inappropriate things in the toilets and sinks? The plumber described a hand towel that had been 'forced' into the drain if I recall correctly. Seemed a bit odd.
 
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